Talk:Union of Horodło

Dubious statements

Lithuanian noble families adopted by Polish clans? Let me cite from Polish heraldry article - Only a small number of szlachta families or clans (Polish: Rody) can be traced all the way back to the traditional clan system. Most szlachta, since at least the 12th century, were not related and their unions were mostly voluntary and based on followership and brotherhood rather than kinship. so revision is needed here for certain.--Lokyz 21:46, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

The article states that this act allowed several Lithuanian and Ruthenian boyars to use Polish coats of arms, likely so they would not only receive legal rights of szlachta but a good part of their status, too. There is no contradiction.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  01:53, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

I do not doubt that part, I do doubt "clans" part- to my knowledge in Poland there were no clans like for example in Scotland, so i do find this part a bit confusing or misleading. It needs to be evaluated a bit further.--Lokyz 08:57, 9 February 2007 (UTC)

Ok, can you elaborate on what exactly do you find confusing?-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  20:56, 10 February 2007 (UTC)

At the first I would like to know what is the misterious thing "Polish Clans" exactly:) because for now it does sound like the clans were multiple and had influence on everything, including foreign states.--Lokyz 19:35, 11 February 2007 (UTC)

So if it goes for a name, "clan" is one of translations or Polish "Ród", others can be house, line, family. I do agree that Scots had a different systhem, but the word clan doesn`t applie only to Scots :) Mikołajski (talk) 22:36, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I did not suppose they're similar, just a few sentences of explanation would be helpful. I do not know much about pre-union Poland, and i think other readers know not much also. Could you expand it a bit? Like the "clans" or "Ród" establishment origins and timeline, the origins of COA in Poland, and why different families had the same COA - were they descendants of one branch, or else... " It would be great to avoid some unnecessary confusion.--Lokyz (talk) 23:12, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

According to wiktionary, offspiring, shoot fits to family too. Now i see that it hardly can be used directly to this matter, as the arms could be given to different, not related familyies, still the word clan is used for all of them. If you look at some CoA pages, you can see that there could be dozens-hundrets of names holdeing it. "Ród" is just a Polish word for a noble family, but not for all of familyies of one CoA. There`s Polish heraldry is "See also" section. This article (as well as other unions) needs little bit more care, i`ll expand it in a day or two. To avoid some POV, it would be good if some Lithuanians will watch it, after all those were unions of two subjects. Mikołajski (talk) 01:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes I know, that one CoA was held by different families, that's why I find clan a bit confusing.--Lokyz (talk) 12:32, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

We have a pretty decent article on Polish heraldry, courtesy of User:Halibutt.--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 12:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

We do have some ambiguity in this article, that needs to be fixed.--Lokyz (talk) 14:20, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Read Polish clans "..there can also be some genealogically unrelated families bearing the same coat of arms and clan name because of a formal adoption upon ennoblement or sometimes because of a misattribution petrified in heraldic literature.". Clan in this point is a group of familyies holdeing one CoA, surnames were from cityies names, eventualy from names of ancestors (like Chodkiewicz -> son of Chodko). But still there`s confusion over similar surnames, or similar names of cityies, for example there were two Zasławski families, one Pahonia coat of arms, second Ostrogski coat of arms, at least two Chodkiewicz (Chodkiewicz coat of arms and Jastrzębiec coat of arms) etc. If it goes for Horodło, adoption wasn`t nothing unusuall, some Polish CoA were as well adopted from different countries, for example Murdelio from Croatian (or Italian) George Murdelio, similar things were going on in whole Europe. Mikołajski (talk) 22:05, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I do not have books on the subject, that's why i do expect some help of yours clarifying this issue. The article Polish clans is not referenced, marking as such. I hope you'll help with this issue also. Thanks in advance.----Lokyz (talk) 22:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)Lokyz (talk) 22:17, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Neither i. But there are e-books, libaryies etc. and i`ll do something with that article, but now let`s concentrate on Union of Horodlo (and other unions). Your (and probably others) confusion about Clan is becouse of translation, some words just cannot be translated so easy and preserve thier original meaning, for example CoA (herb) is sometimes called "klejnot" (jewel) and familyies adopted to it are called by adjective "klejnotni" (herbowi), i`v got no idea how can it be translated (especially if my English is poor). Mikołajski (talk) 23:35, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

That's exactly my point - let's make the article more comprehensive to English language reader. Few sentences, like these, explaining the concept would help a lot. Cheers--Lokyz (talk) 23:52, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

The name of it

I've seen that this village (or city, i don't remember right now) is near Polish east border. I'm really confused about the criteria of what Polish-Lithuanian issues articles are named. I wondering if you are applying the modern or historical point of view. If for example Horodlo was in other country than Poland what would be it name? 85.202.44.245 (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 11:03, 2 August 2013 (UTC)