Talk:United States Note

United States Notes are Bills of Credit

In Juilliard vs Greenman the Supreme Court of the United States settled the ongoing and very heated debate on if the restriction of issuing Bills of Credit was also extended to the Federal government:

"By the constitution of the United States, the several states are prohibited from coining money, emitting bills of credit, or making anything but gold and silver coin a tender in payment of debts. But no intention can be inferred from this to deny to congress either of these powers."

United States Notes are Bills of Credit as that term is used in the Constitution.

The first $2 notes are Continentals and are nine days older than America. On June 25, 1776, the Continental Congress authorizes issuance of the $2 denominations in “bills of credit” for the defense of America. https://www.uscurrency.gov/history | http://eh.net/encyclopedia/money-in-the-american-colonies/

There are so many minor errors in this article being made in ignorance of Juilliard vs Greenman I am not going to bother trying to edit it just to have changes reverted. Kindly correct your own work. The Supreme Court trumps most citations from other sources, like Mises, for example. Christopher Theodore (talk) 18:57, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Actually this was already mentioned by the court in Hepburn, 14 years prior. The Demand Notes of 1861 were Bills of Credit and nobody challenged them since the Tyler administration had set the precedent under Secretary Spencer. The to-do was about forcing people to accept Bills of Credit as a legal tender for debts contracted prior to the 1862 legal tender laws. This is actually a kinda sleepy little article and I doubt your changes would be reverted - give them a try! --LondonYoung (talk) 22:18, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

References

The End of United States Note

I am failing to find any Act of Congress that repealed the previous Act(s) creating the United States Notes. Ergo, there is no "End of the United States Note" (and the citation supporting this as a fact is not a Public Authority and would need to rely upon such an Act of Congress to be factual). Further, on the Treasury's own site, it is quite clear that around $300m US Notes are still in circulation. -- https://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/faqs/Currency/Pages/legal-tender.aspx

Kindly provide the name of the Act that repealed the previous Acts creating the United States Note or edit/delete this section. Simply because no new US Notes have been put into since 1971 doesn't mean they have ceased to exist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by ChristopherTheodore (talk • contribs) 23:01, 10 May 2018 (UTC)

It is called the "Riegle Community Development and Regulatory Improvement Act of 1994", and it is quoted in the article. Many of the notes still exist in collectors' hands, and they are legal tender. However the Fed and the Treasury do not circulate them and have destroyed most of them. Substantially less than $300 million exist. I can answer any further questions you might have ... LondonYoung (talk) 18:33, 14 May 2018 (UTC)

The article never explains why "beginning in 1966, the Treasury converted the outstanding balance into new $100 United States Notes, the majority of which sat unissued in bank vaults." User:LondonYoung says above that the law required the creation of $300,000,000 in U.S. Notes, but this information is not in the article. That leaves the section "End of the United States Note" mysterious. In the section "Post Civil War" there is discussion of amounts in circulation but nothing about a minimum. I don't know enough to add to the article but someone who has that knowledge should do so. Zaslav (talk) 03:01, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

Actually, the article does. In the "Characteristics" section, it says "and an issue of $100 notes in the Series year of 1966, mainly to satisfy the legacy legal requirement of maintaining the mandated quantity in circulation after the $2 and $5 denominations had been discontinued in August 1966".

When the $2 and $5 were withdrawn there was still the requirement to keep the legal minimum "in circulation". The BEP's solution was to print the Series 1966 and 1966A $100 notes (taking up much less room than an equivalent dollar amount of $2 and $5 notes). My understanding (althought I don't remember where I read it-I'll try and find it later) was that they took care of the "in circulation" requirements by periodically moving pallets of the notes from one vault to another. Very few of them actually reached circulation Almostfm (talk) 09:09, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

That all sounds right. I should also add there were some other motives as well. In the 1950's, all $1's were silver certificates and all $2's were USN's. By the 1960's there was a desire to "tidy up" the cash supply and make everything an FRN. The forcing fact was that inflation had lowered the value of the dollar beneath the value of the silver supporting the silver certificates.

This chart is very telling: http://www.uspapermoney.info/general/chron_s.html

Let me know if any other questions .... LondonYoung (talk) 15:26, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

POV

I removed some sections that were obviously biased against the Fed, but I think this article still needs a review by someone with more knowledge in this area. --Phirazo 06:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

The article was not biased against the Fed. It was merely information about United States Notes and its ideological support by American Statesmen. There was nothing about the Federal Reserve in the article! It seems to me above poster is intentionally trying to seek out anti-Fed bias and reaching for something that doesn't exist. I am going to undo the edit as it looks very uncalled for.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 167.206.160.18 (talk) 19:09, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

In the section "The Legal Tender Acts", the following statement is made: "...the printing of fiat currency is a heady wine...". This kind of description smacks of an anti-fiat currency bias and verges on ad hominem. -- Anonymous, 16:03, 8 September 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.65.67.71 (talk)

I have addressed this concern and attributed the quote directly to its author. LondonYoung (talk) 22:46, 9 September 2009 (UTC)

$300,000,000 is incorrect

Though the figure of $300,000,000 is often cited as the total amount of greenbacks allowed by statute. This is incorrect. The correct figure is $346,681,016. I have added the citation to the 1906 New York Times article that gives this as the figure of as of the resumption of specie payments. The treasury website themselves gives the round figure of $300,000,000 but note well they are speaking in round figures. Plain and simple the government source is wrong this time. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wlmg (talk • contribs) 22:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is a bit more subtle than this. The law was that the Treasury was authorized to issue up to $300,000,000 but was also required to reissue any notes it received. Since the outstanding total was $346,681,016 the treasury could not issue new notes (since they were already over the limit) nor contract down to the limit (since there was no authority to retire any notes).--LondonYoung (talk) 19:17, 26 March 2010 (UTC)

While I haven't yet found a good on-line source to back this up, the $100 USN's were printed in 1968 and 1971 _specifically_ to keep the amount "in circulation" at the legally required levels, and most of them were "circulated" by moving them from bank vault to bank vault. Does this seem like a reasonable addition (if I can find backup), or would that be "fluff"?Almostfm (talk) 08:16, 19 April 2011 (UTC)

You are correct. Once they rolled out the Federal Reserve Notes, they mainly used $5's to meet the USN circulation requirement. Five's were the very last issue of large size USN's, and relying on the five continued when the small size was adopted. But they got tired of printing USN fives after they wore out and just decided to finesse that ole' circulation requirement by packing a bunch of 100's into the basement of the NY Fed. Fluff? I dunno, up to you. Online you may find this useful, http://www.uspapermoney.info/general/chron_s.html , but The Comprehensive Catalog of U.S. Paper Money by Hessler and Chambliss is pretty complete ... LondonYoung (talk) 13:08, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

I wrote above that a legal requirement to keep some minimum of USN's in circulation does not appear in the article. This should be fixed. Zaslav (talk) 03:04, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

See the paragraph beginning "In June 1874 ..." LondonYoung (talk) 15:20, 31 October 2022 (UTC)

Unsourced claims

Is anyone actively working on this page? The page is almost entirely unsourced. Kbs666 (talk) 19:49, 6 April 2009 (UTC)

I am willing to begin the process of fixing this page. It will take me a while, but there should certainly be an article on this topic. LondonYoung (talk) 10:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

There should definitely be a topic but there is a lot of stuff, first three paragraphs of the history section for instance, that has no place in an encyclopedia unless some sources can be found. Kbs666 (talk) 20:59, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I agree on the need for sourcing there, and I also think these comments hint too broadly on the fiat currency debate rather than issues specific to United States Notes. I'll get to it.LondonYoung (talk) 22:16, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

I started work on this. I am not a fan on references in the intro; will add them as I attack the body. LondonYoung (talk) 01:56, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

There is a quote in here from economist S.G. Fisher which has been part of this article before. There doesn't seem to be any wikipedia entry for this economist nor any reference to his quote. I think it should be deleted if a reference can't be found.--LondonYoung (talk) 14:23, 1 June 2009 (UTC)

Have failed to find anything about an S.G. Fisher after trying, so out the quote goes for now--LondonYoung (talk) 09:35, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

"On January 16, 1862, in a private meeting with President Lincoln, Edmund Dick Taylor advised him to issue greenbacks as legal tender" This is a display of lack of knowledge regarding the history of United States notes. You simply regurgitated what you saw in run of the mill conspiracy books. If you ever bother to familiarize yourself with the history of greenbacks, you will find out how wrong you are. Sometimes you should read primary sources, such as the record of Congress. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 184.69.27.10 (talk) 21:30, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Lincoln exaggerated Taylor's significance in a personal letter he wrote to him, but the historical record is clear, so bye-bye sentence about E.D. Taylor's involvement.--LondonYoung (talk) 18:39, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

FED note superceeds US note

Hi. I've just made this edit. The statement I removed is false in that there are differences between US notes and FED notes. E.g. FED notes incur interest, whereas a US note does not as it's backed my silver or gold. Correct? --Fenvoe (talk) 16:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I think this is a VERY technical point, but I don't disagree with you. But note - the statement you removed was a direct quote from the Treasury itself! (See Ref. 13 of the current article.) What the Treasury should have said was that they felt no further need for those few monetary functions not served by FRN's that could be served by USN's. To issue FRN's, the Fed must purchase assets (in a tradition established by the National Banking System), but the Treasury can just print and spend USN's as it pleases (subject to congressional limitations). Since the UST is issuing bonds galore right now, and the Fed is buying up those and a host of junk assets as part of the bailout, it doesn't look like we'll face a need for USN's again in our lifetimes. --LondonYoung (talk) 21:01, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Constitution

The claim that "The Constitution did not grant the federal government the power to issue a paper currency" has no source, and is known to be false misleading, in that Federal Government does have the power to issue a paper currency, as found by the courts, even if there is no explicit grant of that power in the Constitution. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 17:01, 17 April 2010 (UTC)

Yea, this is old damage from an anonymous IP, so I changed it back to the way I originally had it. LondonYoung (talk) 23:19, 18 April 2010 (UTC)

A lot of POV junk

A personal (or at least unreferenced) term "national-debt-free-money" has been inserted by a single issue IP who appears to be using WP to complain about the national debt. I've reverted it. IP, if you want to discuss this, do it here. Major changes to an article, not to mention pushing a new political view, needs to be discussed with other article authors.

(It appears from this editors' talk page that he has a lot of these sorts of problems on other articles, and does not really understand WP, or is unwilling to use WP's style.) SBHarris 19:23, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Seigniorage

This was added without a cite in July 2011:

“ Seigniorage in respect of United States Notes took the form of the value received by the Treasury from the acceptor of the United States Notes. ”

I am not a subject matter expert, but this doesn't seem to fit either the classic definition of seignorage (the spread between face value and meltdown value) or a modern definition (the spread between the face value of the currency and the offsetting interest-bearing bill, note, or bond). The classic definition applies to coins and the modern definition applies to Federal Reserve Notes.

In the case of a United States Note there is no offsetting metal value or interest-bearing security. The original printing cost was probabaly less that one cent per note printed. I checked the web site Bureau of Engraving and Printing which doesn't carry a stated printing cost for these notes for accounting purposes.

I will remove it is unless cited or restated. patsw (talk) 00:57, 1 August 2011 (UTC)

I went looking for where the text "in exchange for value received from the acceptor" might have been taken from (search) and saw that this Wikipedia edit with the ink still wet was quoted as authoritative here on Huffington Post.

The whole point of fiat currency is that there's no intrinsic value in it to "the acceptor" (which is a odd name in any case). patsw (talk) 00:41, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

It is certainly bizarrely worded and, I am guessing, just designed to fit in with some blog post. But it is also incorrect. Not all of the value received by the Treasury for these notes is seignorage since the notes do have some value due to their (sometimes limited) legal tender status.--LondonYoung (talk) 22:14, 5 September 2011 (UTC)

Seigniorage is the difference, obviously, between the face value of coin or paper currency and the cost (labor and materials) to produce it. The BEP publishes the cost of printing FRNs. The current cost to print a $100 bill is 9.7 cents meaning a seignorage amount of $99.903 is carried by each of these bills. The BEP prints them and sells them to the Fed for the cost of printing, 9.7 cents. The notion that the interest on the debt the Fed holds "backing" these bills (perhaps $6 per year) is seigniorage is ludicrous, it is a fairy tale. After all, the Treasury paid the $6 and the Fed gave it back to them but started doing that only after the congress passed a law forcing them to return the interest. Hence, by law, debt held by the Fed is interest free (less Fed operating cost) but the Fed is still pocketing that $99.903 per $100 bill in seigniorage on the 10% of the currency that goes for new money, 90% going to replace worn, torn, defaced currency taken out of circulation by the Fed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Charles30000 (talk • contribs) 00:49, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

Do you (or does anyone) have a reliable source for the claim that the Fed buys the notes for just printing cost? Almostfm (talk) 04:02, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

https://www.federalreserve.gov/paymentsystems/coin_about.htm --LondonYoung (talk) 15:19, 19 August 2016 (UTC)

Small-size $10 and $20 notes?

They were mainly issued in $2 and $5 denominations in the Series years of 1928, 1953, and 1963. There was a limited issue of $1 notes in the Series of 1928, and an issue of $100 notes in the Series year of 1966, mainly to satisfy legacy legal requirements of maintaining the mandated quantity in circulation.
I've read somewhere that a pair of $10 and $20 United States Notes, series 1928, were printed and displayed at the 1933 World's Fair. They were never issued into circulation. Is this true? I'm not sure why they were created -- maybe there was talk of formally issuing these denominations? --76.115.67.114 (talk) 22:56, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

Such notes were printed. In currency jargon these are called "Essay" notes. An Essay is a printed design for a note which never goes on to be actually issued. Currency designers printed lots and lots of essay notes so that treasury officials could see what the notes would look like if they actually decided to issue them. The book "US Essay, Proof and Specimen Notes" illustrate the essays you are talking about here. --LondonYoung (talk) 17:32, 20 December 2011 (UTC)

Image Upgrades

I have added scans of small size 1928 $1, $2, and $5 United States Notes, all SN#1. I replaced lower resolution images. These are all part of the Treasury Department collection which resides in the National Numismatic Collection at the Smithsonian. Please let me know if this poses a problem. I scanned the notes myself and have their permission to use the images. - Godot13 (talk) 05:59, 20 February 2013 (UTC)

Created Series of 1928 Table

Created table to illustrate 1928 $1, $2, and $5 (as opposed to prior stacking of images. Please let me know if this is a problem. Thanks--Godot13 (talk) 16:33, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

Complete image set

Would there be any objection to adding an illustrated table with a nearly complete typset of United States Notes (Legal Tender), 1862-1923, all very high-res?-Godot13 (talk) 03:02, 6 September 2014 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Series 1880 United States Notes

A complete denomination set of Series 1880 United States Notes have been nominated for Featured Picture. Comments are welcome through 14 October 2014, or just have a look.--Godot13 (talk) 01:53, 8 October 2014 (UTC)

Insert Link to "legal tender" article

The concept of "legal tender" is a key one in talking about money supply, and there is an article not linked to from this one.

Janosabel (talk) 13:06, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

Featured picture scheduled for POTD

Hello! This is to let editors know that File:US-$1-LT-1880-Fr-29.jpg, a featured picture used in this article, has been selected as the English Wikipedia's picture of the day (POTD) for October 28, 2022. A preview of the POTD is displayed below and can be edited at Template:POTD/2022-10-28. For the greater benefit of readers, any potential improvements or maintenance that could benefit the quality of this article should be done before its scheduled appearance on the Main Page. If you have any concerns, please place a message at Wikipedia talk:Picture of the day. Thank you! Adam Cuerden ^(talk)_{Has about 7.9% of all FPs} 21:23, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

• 
  $1: George Washington
• 
  $2: Thomas Jefferson
• 
  $5: Andrew Jackson

• 
  $10: Daniel Webster
• 
  $20: Alexander Hamilton
• 
  $50: Benjamin Franklin

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  $100: Abraham Lincoln
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  $500: Joseph K. Mansfield
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  $1000: DeWitt Clinton

United States Notes are a type of paper money that was issued from 1862 to 1971 in the United States, longer than any other form of U.S. paper money. They were known popularly as "greenbacks", a name inherited from the earlier greenbacks that they replaced in 1862. Often termed Legal Tender Notes, they were named United States Notes by the First Legal Tender Act, which authorized them as a form of fiat money. During the early 1860s the so-called second obligation on the reverse of the notes stated: "This Note is a Legal Tender for all debts public and private except Duties on Imports and Interest on the Public Debt; and is receivable in payment of all loans made to the United States." These nine United States Notes, in denominations from $1 to $1000, were issued in 1880. Each bears the signatures of the register of the Treasury and the treasurer of the United States, and a portrait of a different individual, identified above. The banknotes are part of the National Numismatic Collection at the Smithsonian Institution.

Banknote design credit: Bureau of Engraving and Printing; scanned by Andrew Shiva

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"AKA Legal Tender Notes"

I dispute that these are known as Legal Tender Notes. I am asking for sources for this allegation, or I want it removed. I have not once ever seen the term capitalised and used as a synonym for any US currency, This article is starting to suck. I'm willing to work on removing the crap but not enough time to write content for it.User:Pedant (talk) 01:17, 22 May 2024 (UTC)