Talk:United States cities with teams from four major league sports

Definition of four major sports

I'm a little hesitant to declare what the four major sports are, but I suppose there's little controversy. The page's name, though, is a bit misleading -- this is a very US-centric page. I'm fine with US-centric pages but I think they need to be clearly labeled. Any objections to moving to U.S. cities with teams from four major sports? Jwrosenzweig 18:50, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

• Sure, that's fine. i agree about the name change. as for what the four major sports, this is based on attendance figures and revenue. Kingturtle 19:00, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)
  • That sounds most reasonable. Thanks. :-) Have a great day, Jwrosenzweig 19:00, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Where are the statistics on each sport's attendance and revenue figures? I'm curious whether the NHL really outranks the MLS in those categories, especially if the revenue figures include broadcasting money. My guess is that if the figures for the MLS don't yet match those of the NHL, they're rapidly closing on them. In any case, neither the NHL or the MLS is likely to approach any of the other three sports in attendance and revenue. Baseball, basketball, and football are like the gas giants of the solar system, compared to terran planets such as hockey and soccer. Sports such as pro lacrosse are the system's asteroids. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.166.18.236 (talk) 21:09, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a great, valuable, insightful page - thank you to all who have made it so!

I have also viewed that there are four major sports - baseball, football, basketball and hockey

AND

I do also view Major League Soccer as the fifth major sport so I think it is definitively worthy of having the list be baseball, soccer, hockey, basketball and football (and the Wikipedia page has the footnotes to MLS attendance beats NHL - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_professional_sports_leagues_in_the_United_States_and_Canada?wprov=sfti1)

What are the standards to being a sport? Does a league count?

Shouldn't women's soccer and women's basketball count?

NASCAR… has teams but they are not "city teams" / "teams from a city."

Golf has wonderful PGA courses worth noting.

And horse racing.

And others I cannot think of.

Proposal 1: we expand this to 5 sports and add others with some appropriate grouping / label.

Proposal 2: there may be a US focus and a North America focus that should include all three countries (add Mexico).

Proposal 3: with time we eventually expand to the rest of the world.

Proposal 4: we make some kind of video representing the teams per city, over time.

It is the list could be extend VVFamEdits (talk) 01:45, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Cities formerly with teams in all four leagues

This is stupid, and misleading. It reads: "Atlanta, Chicago, Cleveland, Detroit, Kansas City, Los Angeles, Minneapolis-St. Paul, the San Francisco Bay Area, and St. Louis, formerly hosted teams in all four major sports leagues."

I thought, by the articles very definition, "city" is defined as "the entire metropolitan area." So why is this necessary? What exactly is the title trying to say? Is it saying that these are cities where the other team plays in the burbs? Cities where they've lost a team at one point? But all of these teams have regained them. Maybe instead it should be labeled: "cities with all four teams which have lost teams and then regained them." But either way...that's really stupid, and just seems to be a regurgitation of random facts, since half of these cities got their teams back. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.0.118.131 (talk) 06:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I think the section is valuable

as it enables sharing the one fact

Only a single city pair has played one another for the championship in each of the four original sports - baseball, football, basketball and hockey - Boston and St. Louis… and without noting that the Hawks moved to Atlanta, some may not fully understand. VVFamEdits (talk) 01:51, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Adding Seattle?

With the newly-formed Seattle Kraken starting in the 2021-22 season this fall, I believe Seattle now qualifies as having both, four sports and four + MLS. Should it be added now or once the season begins? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 47.147.1.184 (talk • contribs)

@47.147.1.184: No, they do not have an NBA team at this time. It will be three and an MLS team once the Kraken start. Yosemiter (talk) 16:05, 21 May 2021 (UTC)

@Yosemiter: Oops, I must be living in the past. I seriously thought the Sonics were still around. Disregard!

Didn't San Diego once have all four major sports teams?

Because I was pretty sure at one point they had one team in each sports league, the Padres in the MLB, the Clippers in the NBA, the Gulls in the NHL, and the Chargers in the NFL. Am I wrong? Because I know they were all in SD at one point (I'm 100% sure for the MLB, NHL, and NFL, but am I wrong about the Clippers?), but were they at different times? Sincerely, CertifiedAmazing2 wanna chat? 20:47, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

Additionally, with the MLS's Sockers and the Rugby team (completely out of the ordinary, not even sure if that counts, haha) the SD Legion, they do at least have four sports teams alone today. CertifiedAmazing2 wanna chat? 20:50, 4 April 2022 (UTC)

No, San Diego has never had an NHL team. (Nor a WHA team if that's assumed to count.) The term is limited to teams in MLB, the NFL, NBA, and NHL, or the leagues they have merged with. With no major hockey team (SD has only ever had minor league teams, like the current Gulls), San Diego simply does not qualify.

Oh, and the Sockers were not in MLS, but the relatively short-lived (if memorable) defunct NASL. oknazevad (talk) 00:58, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

if the WHA counts the San Diego Mariners played 3 seasons from 1974-1977. if the WHA and the ABA are being counted then San Diego did have all for major sports in 1974 and 1975.Straykat99 (talk) 03:58, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

I forgot about the Mariners. My bad. oknazevad (talk) 13:51, 5 April 2022 (UTC)

Mentioning Seattle

Should we add Seattle as a city that has had teams in all four sports? They never had all four at the same time, but they could at least be mentioned under the "former cities" section. Malcolmmwa (talk) 01:43, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

No, because they never had all four at the same time. oknazevad (talk) 02:24, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

Boston and St. Louis

I just added a section at the bottom of this article, "Boston and St. Louis."

I think this fact is worth noting and this is the page where it should be noted.

I welcome input on formatting endnote [7]... I'm not sure that I captured the reference to the NBCsports page correctly.

I also welcome input on formatting of the content.

I sought for the sections to read just like this:

In MLB,

- the Cardinals have beaten the Red Sox to win the 1946 Wold Series and 1967 World Series

- the Red Sox have beaten the Cardinals to win the 2004 World Series and 2013 World Series Series tied 2-2.

but when the page previewed it looked like this:

In MLB, - the Cardinals have beaten the Red Sox to win the 1946 Wold Series and 1967 World Series - the Red Sox have beaten the Cardinals to win the 2004 World Series and 2013 World Series Series tied 2-2.

To get the content like it is I needed to addd two carriage returns / press return/enter twice... as once did not work.

Can someone help me understand how/why the formatting was like this?

Thanks! VVFamEdits (talk) 02:55, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

I'm sorry, but I don't see the point of the section. oknazevad (talk) 04:35, 11 May 2023 (UTC)

Of all the cities in the US / north America

and with leagues more than 100 years old

only two cities have met in the championships of all four sports.

That is newsworthy enough that even people who don't care should be able to let those who do care share it. VVFamEdits (talk) 03:41, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

I also asked some specific questions about formatting... might you be able to answer those?

And if the purpose of wikipedia is to share information, why remove information someone shared, even if you don't care about it? VVFamEdits (talk) 03:45, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Might it have been the city record / scoring that was less relevant? I removed that just now... valid point you make... let's just report when the two cities' teams played. Good call. thanks. VVFamEdits (talk) 03:55, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

The odds... what are the odds that only two cities have played one another, and how to calculate those odds?

Ignoring talent... focusing only on the number of teams in each league...

My initial thought was that the calculation just needs to count the teams in each league... then average the odds across the four leagues - MLB, NFL, NBA & NHL...

...

... and then I realized there needs to be some factor accounting for the Hawks' having moved from St. Louis to Atlanta and the years when neither the Cardinals (Big Red) nor the Rams called STL home... and outside those years, you don't count the NBA odds nor the NFL.

So I'm stumped... might anyone know the math needed to determine the odds of

a) any two teams playing the championship of a single league?

b) any two teams playing the championship of two leagues?

c) any two teams playing the championship of three leagues?

d) any two teams playing the championship of four leagues?

e) any two teams playing the championship of five leagues?

Thanks,

Mike VVFamEdits (talk) 04:52, 13 May 2023 (UTC)

Is the correct math...

to first calculate the combinations per league:

MLB... 30 teams... 13 cities out of 30 = .43 / 43% chance any two teams play one another

NFL... 32 teams... 13 cities out of 32 = .41 / 41% change any two teams play one another

NBA... 30 teams... 13 cities out of 30 = .43 / 43% chance any two teams play one another

NHL... 32 teams... 13 cities out of 32 = .41 / 41% change any two teams play one another

-->

so .43 * .41 * .43 * .41 = .03 = 3%... there would be a 3% chance, on any given year, that two cities play one another?

this is for any given year

to be more accurate we'd need to factor in time, right?

and that reduces the denominator... fewer teams with all four sports on any view year before 1993 and the Marlins' arrival...

which means the odds are at least few percent points higher, though likely still in the single digits...

the point being... while the probability is low, it is not non-existent... some leagues have been around for long enough that there should have been more city pairs playing one another in all four sports and yet there is only one city pair...

... and I do wholeheartedly welcome any and all help on the math... I wish I remembered better back to that pre-statistics / probability class...

Thanks!

)

VVFamEdits (talk) 18:33, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Unless someone else makes the connection first, it's not appropriate to include in Wikipedia. Otherwise it constitutes WP:SYNTH. It's also pure coincidence and insignificant since St Louis hasn't had a team in the NBA in over half a century. oknazevad (talk) 21:41, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I think the "Boston and St. Louis" section should be put back into the article. It's significant in the context of the article, and would be of interest to our readers. The fact that St. Louis doesn't currently have NBA or NFL teams doesn't matter, because they used to, so it at least has relevance for sports history. So, contrary to this edit summary, it's not trivial. And it's not WP:SYNTH, because the referenced article from NBC Sports documents it. Perhaps some editors were put off by VVFamEdits' discussion style above, and the section did need some reformatting and copy editing, but it would still be a worthwhile inclusion. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:15, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

I think it warrants a passing mention in the part about historic cities (i.e. the ones that don't have teams in all four leagues currently) at most. Not a whole section. That's overkill. oknazevad (talk) 02:37, 16 May 2023 (UTC)

Well, here it is -- a passing mention, in the section about historic cities. This seriously slimmed-down version may be adequate to cover the topic, though I think it's perhaps interesting enough to be its own little sub-section. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:44, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

Looks much better. oknazevad (talk) 18:48, 18 May 2023 (UTC)

Name of this article

The name of this article has been changed several times recently, without any discussion. Usually it's better to talk about these things first. So, let's talk about it now. Here are the recent name changes:

• July 2 from "U.S. cities with teams from four major league sports" to "United States metropolitan areas with four major league sports teams"
• November 12 from "United States metropolitan areas with four major league sports teams" to "United States metropolitan areas with all four major league sports teams"
• November 16 from "United States metropolitan areas with all four major league sports teams" to "United States metropolitan areas with teams in all major pro sports leagues"

So... What does everybody think is the best title for this article, and why? It could be the current name, a former name, or a different name. Post 'em up, folks. (Pinging @Banan14kab and Oknazevad: but all are encouraged to participate.) — Mudwater ^(Talk) 22:52, 20 November 2023 (UTC)

I mostly changed to the current name because the previous one was ungrammatical as there's more than fours major league sports teams. It was just a mess of a title. The pre-July 2 title had been in place for many years, but switching to "metropolitan area" makes sense as a) some teams are in nearby suburbs, not the main city, and b) the leagues themselves care more about media markets than actual city. I think the current title does the best to describe the article contents I can think of, but I'm not wedded to it, and am willing to consider other possibilities. oknazevad (talk) 02:06, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

I suggest we rename the article back to the old name, prior to July of this year -- "U.S. cities with teams from four major league sports". That title was much shorter, or less unwieldy, and it was also accurate. The word "city" can refer to the area within the legal boundaries of a large municipality, but it can also mean an entire metropolitan area. The second usage often applies to sports teams. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 19:21, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Concur. I'd just add a hyphen to the compound adjective: "U.S. cities with teams from four major-league sports". PRRfan (talk) 04:14, 26 November 2023 (UTC)

Sooo are we going back to cities instead of metropolitan areas? I only did so because of accuracy, but I'm willing to change it back to cities as the metro area media market is mostly used by the sports industry. Also I believe its simpler for the table. We can just add another parameter for metro area/media market next to the city. Banan14kab (talk) 06:02, 2 December 2023 (UTC)

Yes, let's rename this article back to what it was before -- "U.S. cities with teams from four major league sports". Or should it have a hyphen -- "U.S. cities with teams from four major-league sports"? What do others say? In an attempt to get more editorial opinions, I have posted about this here at WikiProject Sports. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 00:00, 22 December 2023 (UTC)

I just realized that Banan14kab renamed the article to "United States cities with teams from four major league sports", back on December 2nd. So, I think we're good now. — Mudwater ^(Talk) 01:32, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

I support the following name - United States cities with teams from four major-league sports. If United States is to be shortened to U.S., then this needs to be applied to all related articles. Since many related articles spell out the United States, it would require a large number of article renames. Consistency in naming across the platform is very important. - BeFriendlyGoodSir (talk) 20:30, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Analysis Section

The analysis section of this article is messy and filled with non-notable information. Fun facts about things like which high-population areas don't have teams don't fall under WP:SIGCOV, at least with the current citations. Even if that was fixed, the article still has too many subsections. Five of them regard population, and an additional two are about cities with two teams in the same league.

What should be done with this section? Right now, it feels like the best thing to do is scrap it entirely but if there's a good way to improve it I haven't thought of, I'd like to hear it. SolarSnail (talk) 19:56, 16 April 2024 (UTC)

The reason for covering the cities with large populations that don't have teams in all four leagues is simply that four-sport status is typically only found in the largest metro areas (and two teams in each league is found only in the two largest metro areas), so the material should remain, though reorganizing it to reduce the choppy overuse of headers is not a bad idea. oknazevad (talk) 11:34, 19 April 2024 (UTC)

Metro area vs core city & cities

I believe we've discussed this topic already on this thread, but given the title of the article and what has been accepted as written for awhile now, the first column in the table should be the "Core city (or cities)" not "Metro areas". From the context of the article readers can obviously identify some teams are based within the metro area, hence why we put locations in small parentheses. People are more familiar with cities and it is simpler. The article was fine so there is no reason to change it suddenly; I also advocate this as I originally changed it to metro areas and it was discussed it's overall better to keep it as cities. This shouldn't even need to be discussed to be honest. It just causes disruption.Banan14kab (talk) 15:22, 27 June 2024 (UTC)

What prompted my recent change to metro areas was this edit which removed the Devils from the New York area teams. Using metro areas makes the scope clearer so incorrect edits like that are preempted. It also is consistent with the second chart including MLS teams, which hadn't been changed from metro areas. Both charts should use the same formatting.

Also, the inclusion of listing the Golden State Warriors as playing in San Francisco I feel is needed because the name of the team doesn't make it obvious as to which of the Bay Area's cities the team plays in, especially since that has changed in recent years with their move to the Chase Center. oknazevad (talk) 14:27, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I agree that listing the metro area makes more sense, as that is what is actually being used to define the scope of teams listed in the table. Listing the core city just confuses readers, as per the above example from oknazevad.

The metro areas are typically named after the core city, so I don't think that the argument that readers will be unfamiliar them is very strong. TDL (talk) 20:50, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

If that's the case, then the article needs to be retitled (again) and the page restructured. Because then its inconsistent and not uniform as it is now. Even the "Overview by city" section is now a mess.Banan14kab (talk) 15:27, 13 July 2024 (UTC)