Talk:Upper Reka

Clothing and traditions

I put the clothing in the present tense, while the traditions I'm not sure if they need to be in present or past tense. Most of them still survive, so I'm certain that we wouldn't go to far from the sources if the sources talk about a past.MorenaReka (talk) 14:55, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

I put it in past tense as the book by Edibe spoke of most of these clothes have been worn on a day to day basis till at least the 1960s-1970s. Today they are only worn in circumstances when there are folkloric events, not on a day to day to day basis. I should have outlined that. Past tense for clothing is best. Most wear Western stuff now with only some of the elderly like the men wearing the plis or older women wearing the headscarf and the Orthodox wearing a cross necklace (all ages and genders).

Also i should outline the language used for Orthodox Albanian speaking people. Most do not consider themselves as Albanians. Its the same for those in Greece also and even to some extent even Albania these days. Its complicated and i can go into it another time. Those very few who have come out and proclaimed Albanian identity should be mentioned in a separate section most possibly. I was going to get to that in time and the history part because that would attract editors here who will make things very difficult to get anything done now. There are so few Albanian editors on Wikipedia and many others who just are hell bent on obstructing for the sake of obstructing. Moreover best to use terminology like Orthodox Albanian speakers instead of Orthodox Albanians because these people today identify as Macedonians. We do not want this article to be a POV central piece that gets nothing done. Instead it should contain information on Upper Reka, its rich culture and complicated history in honour of the people who come from there and those who have a Upper Reka connection like myself (my great grandmother.) Beyond that i thank you for your interest and input. Much to do here.Resnjari (talk) 09:20, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I deleted the stuff on Manojlovski for the time being. Best it not be there at the moment. I will get to that. It will involve the history section toward the end and written somewhat differently. Citing Manojlovski is a bit problematic considering that he says Vidoe is Albanian. Vidoe's origins are from Nikiforovo, a Macedonian village in Mala Reka in the Mavrovo area. There was some migration and limited intermarriage with a few neighbouring Albanian speaking villages and Macedonian ones in the area (mainly Belicica and Verben with Nikiforovo, Mavrovo etc). Identities on what they may have viewed themselvees differed. Doda has a passage where he talks about some villages changing Serbian and Bulgarian teachers at will during the whole Macedonia struggle and identity tug of war amongst Orthodox Albanian speakers. Best to refrain from it. I will get to it. I promise. First lets do the non-contriversial parts first.Resnjari (talk) 09:55, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Resnjari, I fully understand, and I will leave it up to you to reintroduce that paragraph when you see it fit. You should be aware though, that Manojlovski's multiple interviews have been revelatory of a past that very few people had no idea about, and I am not talking about the Albanians of Albania, but also about those of Kosovo and Macedonia itself, but I have faith that you will do your best to improve the article. Vidoe seems to be first cousin of Branko Manojlovski, and Branko says how Vidoe would speak to Branko and his mother only in Albanian. He has gone to great lengths to explain that in interviews that you may watch on youtube. Manojlovski also has an article in the Albanian Wikipedia, and is president of honor of the Josif Bageri Association. The figure of Bageri is being revalued, as he was key in expressing ideas of national union through values that encompass three religions (pretty much what Pashko Vasa and Ndre Mjeda were saying), but his dimension is being understood only recently. The area of the entire Reka region, of which I started an article yesterday, is an important node of the entire Balkans, because you have multiple elements of ethnicity/religion/history, that are intermingled. I often think that when you understand Reka, you understand the Balkans. It takes a very careful editor to build a complex article like this, so for now I'm going to limit myself in copy editing and have no issues with your removal. --MorenaReka (talk) 16:21, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

I prefer to get the non-controversial stuff out of the way first. Otherwise it will attract the wrong crowd if you know what i mean. Albanian editors are fair game these days on Wikipedia as there are so few. I have had to clean up many racist gibberish on pages often with other editors wanting to keep such filth. This article can be very good. Just i am not at that stage yet. Getting there though. Same goes for the other Albanian editors who might want to make edits regarding this article.Resnjari (talk) 16:27, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

Vlachs

Но, бидеќи во денешните албански имиња не постои ниту едно од тогашните, се чини дека влашките лични имиња во тој период преовладувале во пределот. (Predominantly Vlach names), Неспорно е дека дел од овие горнорекански семејства имаат подалечно влашко потекло кое во периодот пред XV век почнало интензивно да се словенизира. (Undisputed Vlach origin of a part of families), why is this not in the article text?--Zoupan 19:59, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Because Murati disputes that as Mircevska states that all those names that are not of a Slavic origin are Vlach becuase those names do not exist in Albanian today. That is wrong (most of those names are used in contemporary times Gon> Gjon; Gin> Gjin [John]; Tanush > Athanasius, Sherk > Shergj/Shirgj [Sergius]; Vlash > Blasius etc) and Murati cites Galaba Palikruseva to that effect who has done a lot of research on those defters. Palikruseva states that ommission of the Albanian element does not suffice. Anyway the Vlach part and the views of various researchers will go in a separate section on Origins. In the region there was a past symbiosis and its complicated. Also I want to leave the Medieval period clear of any agendas or issues. This is a complicated article and the most complicated bit i have left till last. Its taken me over two months to get this far. Best.Resnjari (talk) 09:20, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Ethnography

Serbian ethnographers claim that the [Orthodox] Gornorekanci had a Serbian Orthodox identity during the Bulgarian Exarchate period. A 1937 source also claims that "majority of Gornorekanci are Islamized Serbs (meaning Orthodox Slavs by origin), some of whom are Albanianized, but there are also Orthodox Serbs and settled Albanians." For further expansion and improvement, towards GA, there should be an "anthropology"-section which notes on the inhabitants' character, kin relations, and origin stories (ethnography), according to anthropological studies; the "Population and Identity"-section is lacking width. But maybe you were already planning this (there are some mentions in passing in the "History"-section). Nice work, btw, although I don't like the fat citations.--Zoupan 20:24, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Actually i was getting to that bit. I was going to call it Origins (to go before the medieval period, -its going to take me a few days, i got my thesis stuff to do also :-) ). I don't like fat citations also, however considering the article has its controversial bits (only citations for that) i think its warranted to prevent a endless array of useless conversations about POV this or POV that. Anyway citations only become fat because i placed a translation (without it they are of reasonable size, though they are there because not everyone can read German, Albanian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Macedonian etc). I want the reader to be able to access information as much as possible. Its the way i do things. Anyway I got to add some stuff on fauna and wildlife too in the climate bit. Its got a little more to go before GA.BestResnjari (talk) 09:08, 4 December 2015 (UTC)

Who is the 1937 source? --MorenaReka (talk) 20:43, 3 December 2015 (UTC)

Its to do with Smiljanovic, there are a couple. Its complicated. Stay tuned. Hehe. Best.Resnjari (talk)

Elizabeta Arsovska, WP:RS?

I just inspected the source for the "cool" response from the Orthodox of Reka to Manojlovski etc. I didn't doubt it before because I thought it had been written by an expert on the matter, like a political scientist or current affairs analyst. But nope, it's a journalist. In addition to saying that the Upper Reka Orthodox told her they were Macedonians citing their Macedonian names, she makes a number of pretty interesting claims. Here's the google translate version (note that "Scots" is the mistranslation of "Shkreti"; anyhow...) : [[1]]. Here's the tl;dr summary (admittedly I may have misunderstood some things due to Goog Translate, but still):

• 1) The church of Belicica was destroyed by rapacious mobs (assumedly Muslim Albanian?) and as a result the local Macedonians were forced to adopt the Albanian language and speak in it to prevent the evil mobs from murdering them. And this is how they came to speak Albanian and forget Macedonian?
• 2) Two centuries ago, the churches were using Old Church Slavonic and not Greek...? '
• 3) The local Macedonians (i.e. Albanian speakers) are always the victims of the "rock-climbers" who were forcing them to speak Albanian, and they were constantly burning their houses, robbing them etc. Since time immemorial? And since when are Albanians "rock-climbers"?? [is this a translation error?]
• 4) 150-200 years ago, weddings were held in Old Slavic [meaning OCSlavonic I assume] "or the Macedonian language" (?!)
• 5) There is a plot to turn the Saint Jovan Bigorski Monastery into the seat of the Albanian Autocephalous Orthodox Church
• 6) "The etymology of the Macedonian word sacred is derived from the Geghian (Albanian) word ŠKJA, which means Slovenian." [I seriously hope this is a mistranslation]
• 7) "But there are not only shrines in the Upper River, but Macedonians in Albania mostly live in Golo Brdo, the districts of the city of Konjuh (renamed Ottomans in Elbasan), Belgrade (renamed Ottomans in Berat), Gorica (Turkish Korcha), Bobovista, Pogradec , Devol, etc"
• 8) The (linguistic?) Albanization of parts of Western Macedonia happened in the 19th century.

If this is all a collection of different errors by Google Translate, that's good. But it seems statistically likely, and more like this Arsovska is a bit of a hysterical nationalist spouting unsourced historical theories. The only source she ever used was Jovan Cvijic (not a reliable source to begin with), just to say that "Albanians call Serbs and Montenegrins shkja". So to put it lightly I have serious doubts about her. I'm sure a better source could be found for the ambivalence of some Reka Albanians to the Orthodox Albanian identity.--Yalens (talk) 03:51, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

It was the best of a problematic situation. The whole debate about the church happened a few years ago and was a big thing in Upper Reka. So far scholars have not covered it as Upper Reka does not always feature in scholarly studies and when it does its often in the span of many years from one another. The dispute needs to be covered as Arsovska went and interviewed Orthodox Upper Reka locals on their views. Its on that account that it is included. Upper Reka Orthodox locals oppose a Albanian church or liturgy in Albanian. I don't know how else that issue could be covered. Your thoughts ?Resnjari (talk) 10:28, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

I say she's not RS, find another source. Of course there are complicating factors: most Orthodox 'locals' from Reka don't live there anymore and haven't for quite some time, and it sucks to be Albanian in Macedonia so why would you want that. Obviously historically there have been some like Josif Bageri who identified strongly as Albanians, others like Albanov seemed to identify as "Albanian Bulgarians" and exhibit sympathy toward both causes [others call locals Serbs or Vlachs]. Manojlovski and Sinadinovski also do have an organization that includes people besides themselves, and are other individuals from the region who have come out and said "yes, I'm actually Albanian" (for example one famous Macedonian language poet) so it's not true that Albanian identity is limited to a couple of 'lovable idiots' (quote from the Macedonian press). This is while not explicitly refusing Macedonian identity either (in Matevski's case, despite explicitly being Albanian he is a Macedonian writer after all and he clearly is not hostile to Macedonians). On the other hand, the fact that the majority identify as Macedonians is reliably cited and must stay. I'm arguing until an acceptable source is found this should be either tagged or removed -- finding an acceptable source preferably in English or some language not butchered by Google Translate shouldn't be hard if it's actually true that there is massive and emotive opposition, as Arsovska seems to argue, among the locals to an Albanian church. If there's just ambivalence, on the other hand (a possible case), the statement shouldn't be on the page.--Yalens (talk) 16:29, 30 June 2017 (UTC)

The church debate is also part of the wider debate about identity among Orthodox Albanian speaking Upper Reka locals. In the section News (news reports, current affairs and interviews(right at the bottom of the page) i have included audiovisual material from both sides as well. Both Manojlovski and Sinadinovski who support an Albanian ii9denntity, and Sinadinovski's sister who opposes him and is kind of a leader of sorts that opposes the church. In one of the news clips some of the people Arsovka interviews are present alongside Sinadinovski's sister. There is another interview (the one titled Illirida in the Church) that interviews a great grand nephew of Bageri who refutes Albanian hertiage. Yet that same person in a undercover interview in Upper Reka with Marin Mema for Top Channel speaks Albanian while refuting Albanian heritage. I have tried to place sources in here that cover both sides and wrote it that it covers both sides of the matters like that so this article does not descend into the usual POV this or that nightmares which dominates other articles. Best.Resnjari (talk) 08:28, 1 July 2017 (UTC)

That all seems fair. Certainly there must be some RS reference to the interview. You could cite that. --Yalens (talk) 05:41, 2 July 2017 (UTC)

Mircevska

The part about Mirjana Mirčevska's 2007 ethnography occupies a larger portion of the section than required as per WP:DUE, since her view is actually refuted in the next paragraphs. The section should start with views which are more commonly accepted before presenting the opinion of less commonly held theories.Alltan (talk) 21:53, 13 April 2022 (UTC)

@Alltan: the reason why i included Mircevska is that her ethnography is backed by linguist Qemal Murati (Murati is the guy to took on via critique, the Kosovo establishment over its policy of toponym replacements [2], he is by no means a nationalist). It why i bought her book and used it here. Murati only critiques her analyses regarding the Albanian language and of the defter data. Its unavoidable not dealing with Mircevska, as her ethnography is basically the last study of its type on the Orthodox. Nearly all Orthodox Upper Rekans have moved away either to Gostivar (Dutlok suburb), to Skopje or far away places like Belgrade. Its mainly Muslim Albanian Upper Rekans who remain in Vrbjan village.Resnjari (talk) 02:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

@Resnjari: Can you provide online access to Mirčevska (2007). I'd like to read the defter data.--Maleschreiber (talk) 23:53, 30 April 2022 (UTC)

@Maleschreiber:, I included the quotes from Mircevska. That's as much as she goes into that. I can do a scan and all if you wish. Can you read Macedonian?Resnjari (talk) 02:40, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Ethnic groups in the introduction

Can someone tell me why the introduction states that Reka is only populated by ethnic Albanians some of which have been "Slavicized" even though one source claims only a few villages and Mircevska explicitly states that they were Macedonian and makes no mention of them being Albanians.

Also the other section states that the population calls itself "Gornorekanec" which is a Slavic Macedonian word meaning "upper-river man" it's non-sensical that an Albanian population would call itself that. GoofyMF (talk) 12:11, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

If you scroll down to the Population and Identity subsection of the Demographics section, there is more detail on the matter; if you still have doubts, read the sources for yourself. Furthermore, it actually does make a lot of sense that a religiously/culturally/linguistically assimilated group of Albanian origin would refer to themselves in Macedonian as Gornorekanec; for starters, that's how they refer to themselves in Macedonian, it's a translation of the region they hail from. Second of all, an Albanian population that has been assimilated into a Slavic identity would quite obviously refer to themselves using Slavic terms. That's very obvious. As I have stated on the Tetova TP, If you simply do not like Albanians, just say it and avoid creating unnecessary TP's using your own conclusions and questioning established bibliography. Botushali (talk) 06:10, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

You are the only one making assumptions, Bechev says some villages and Mirchevska says that the Muslim inhabitants of Gorna Reka (Gornorekanci) identify as Albanian while the Orthodox identify as Macedonian.

And it does not make any sense at all, first of all you are assuming that the whole population is of Albanian origin, secondly the article itself says that they were called "Shkreti" (Albanian origin) but they called themselves (Gornorekanci) the Shkreti are Albanian speakers, why would they call themselves by a Slavic Macedonian ethnonym if they were historically of Albanian origin? GoofyMF (talk) 16:23, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Sorry i pressed enter before i finished my reply, Mircevska which is sited as confirming that the population was Albanian isn't confirming it. And neither does Bechev he simply mentions "Albanian speakers" the prevalent view among Macedonian/Serbian scholars is that the Shkreti were Albanized

"[All of the population of Upper Reka, again regardless of ethnic and religious affiliation of neighboring regions, is known by the exonym "Shkreti." And this happens to be the exonym retained until today. "Shkrete" in Albanian speech means "deserted". According to descriptions of ethnological and ethno-physical features, provided by some authors (Cvijić, Nedeljković, to some extent, Smiljanić), in general the population of Upper Reka, as you can see that it was really difficult and painful to live in constant fear of attacks, robberies and murder, living in "the wilderness" as stated today in Upper Reka. That area was "desolate" in the sense of living in the most difficult in terms of robberies, known by the population from neighboring areas especially Mavrovo Pole, and the Upper Polog and Lower Reka. So using the Albanian form "shkreto" for "desolate" is precisely why the population of Mavrovo Pole employed this exonym most. Ethnonym/exonym is used today in the area, but only by Mavrovci and Lower Rekans while an inhabitant of Upper Reka never would call himself a "Shkret."

In this article the Shkreti were protesting claims by Sinadinovski and Manojlovski who are cited in this wiki page about their supposed Albanian origin, they reject it completely.

https://vecer.mk/uncategorized/%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%BE%D0%B3%D0%B0%D1%88-%D0%BD%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BE-%D0%B4%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BC%D0%B0-%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5-%D1%81%D0%BC%D0%B5-%D0%BC%D0%B0%D0%BA%D0%B5%D0%B4%D0%BE%D0%BD/\

And again, do not try to personally insult me by claiming that i am doing this out of spite when all i ask is clarification, if you feel i am making unnecessary TP's then simply ignore them.

GoofyMF (talk) 16:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

GoofyMF, your citing people like Cvijic, that discredited Serb nationalist who used his position in academia to advance territorial claims and push dodgy theories like Arnautaš, i.e Albanisation of Slavs. I'm not even going to bother with that. The use of the (pejorative) word Shkreti by some non Reka Albanian populations is in reference to the their difficult living circumstances and is academically sourced in the article. I don't want to get into a debate about Macedonian identity of the Slavic population, and the more recent use of the term Macedonian, in what is now modern North Macedonia. But you must understand, the Orthodox Upper Reka populace attended Serb and Bulgarian schools in the Ottoman era, and the different tug of wars over their allegiances were undertaken as with the wider Orthodox population of the region. Macedonian became the dominant identity marker of the Orthodox population in what is now North Macedonia, especially following the second world war. The article you cite from vecer is the present Orthodox Reka population's view of their identity, i think that should be cited in the article. I wasn't keen on that Sinadinovski/Manojlovski stuff years ago, but was added to prevent this article becoming a shitshow (see earlier talkpage threads). Anyway most, if not nearly all of this Orthodox Reka community has rebuked Sinadinovski's initiatives which have led nowhere and see Manojlovski as an outlier.Resnjari (talk) 02:25, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

You don't have to bother with Cvijic i understand well who he was, the original point was and remains that none of the sources used in the introduction or in the later text claim that the Orthodox population in the region is Albanian, the citations used for that are Mircevska and that Bulgarian guy who mentions some villages and isn't really an amazing source, Mircevska flatly denies them being Albanian based on her research in the region which is what i was quoting. Which is supported by the fact they call themselves Gornorekanec (Slavic) their regions Gorna Reka (Slavic) and identifying as Macedonian to this day. My problem isn't that Albanian views on the Shkreti shouldn't be present it's the use of Macedonian and Bulgarian sources which don't claim that or claim otherwise being used to only represent the Albanian theory. The situation with the Shrketi is far more complicated than the simple Slavs assimilated native Albanians which is what the article implied originally.

GoofyMF (talk) 10:30, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Of course Mircevska does not call them Albanians. In fact when she did her fieldwork study over 2 decades ago, she did so via the Macedonian language (as she cannot speak Albanian) with the elderly Orthodox Upper Rekans and few middle aged and young people that were there while also acknowledging that they spoke Albanian among themselves. The Albanian linguistic factor troubled Mirceveska (and has been critiqued by Murati with her i.e problematic explanation of Vlach matters and the Albanian Reka dialect), as it has done with many commentators and others who are of a Slavic background looking at the area for nearly 2 centuries. Here's the thing, scholars who don't have a dog in the fight have in recent times looked at the matter objectively, and whether it causes discomfort to Orthodox Upper Rekans themselves, the population is of Albanian origin. That does not discount how they consider themselves today i.e Macedonian, or for that matter for the last few decades when Macedonian identity took shape after World Two in the way it is understood today. And please don't call them Shkreti, though the word is Albanian (Mircevska notes it was used by people from Mavrovo Pole and Lower Reka -regions with Macedonian speaking people and Murati adds that the term was used by Macedonians in a pejorative sense) its an offensive word toward them that both Muslim and Orthodox Upper Rekans find repugnant.Resnjari (talk) 06:38, 27 December 2022 (UTC)

Misuse of sources and Population and identity

The Population and Identity section misuses citations to fit their own narrative, example

"Upper Reka is inhabited by Muslim and Christian Albanian speaking people referred through demonyms in Macedonian as Gornorekanec (plural: Gornorekanci)[12] and Rekali (plural: Rekalinj/të) in Albanian.[28][29] By outsiders they are referred to as Shkreti,[30] from the Albanian word and expression shkretë/i shkret meaning the poor ones, due to their isolated mountainous homeland and difficult living circumstances.[31][32] Of the Albanian speaking populations who remained Christian Orthodox, they assimilated and identify as Macedonians"

The citations are Mirchevska and Bechev.

Mirchevska in the origin section states: "While anthropologist Mirjana Mirčevska who did field work in Upper Reka during the 2000s, stated that both the Muslim and Orthodox population was mainly of Macedonian Slavic origin, with possible Albanian elements in their ethnogenesis" also Mirchevska says that the name Gornorekanec which is purely Macedonian in origin was an endonym not a denonym it is how the people in Gorna Reka called thesmelves. Both terms Gornorekanec and Rekalija are Slavic in origin as is the name of the region "reka" which is simply the slavic word for "river" Shkreti which is an Albanian word is an exonym it is applied to them by other people.

"Ethnonym/exonym is used today in the area, but only by Mavrovci and Lower Rekans while an inhabitant of Upper Reka never would call himself a "Shkret." This is Mirchevska the word "inhabitant of Upper Repka" is a translation of the original word used by Mirchevska Горнореканец/Gornorekanec

Bechev simply states several villages were assimilated not the entire region.

It is very dishonest to use these sources to support the theory that all the people in Gorna Reka were Albanian and that the Orthodox were assimilated despite them clearly using Slavic names while speaking Albanian. This is a better example of a Slavic population that became Albanized and started using the Albanian language than it is an example of the opposite.

But most importantly none of the research is conclsuive and both sides need to be represented not one side which misinterprets citations which literally state the opposite.

GoofyMF (talk) 10:48, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

I have the book. Mircevska does not say they use Rekali for themselves. All she says that is what they are called. It fits within understandings of a denonym. Only Osmani states that both Muslim and Christian Albanians use it in the area for themselves, which would be an endonym. I have avoided using an endonym, but we can fix it by removing both or for getting some WP:RS sources for it. Gornorekanec is the word used in Macedonian, no mention by Mircevska as a exclusive internal used word. As for the rest there, nope evidence points to an Albanian Orthodox population being slavicised, a process that went full throttle these past few decades under Yugoslav rule. Pieroni's independent linguistic study all but trashed the theories of Albanisation.Resnjari (talk) 01:58, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

Mirčevska (2007) and non-Slavic Anthroponyms

@Local hero: has recently readded 'Mirčevska's Verbalni i neverbalni etnički simboli vo Gorna Reka' (2007) in support of the argument/thesis that the non-Slavic anthroponymy attested in medieval Upper Reka is ambiguous in character - with names such as Gerg, Gon, Progon, Tanush, Meksha, and Bard being presented as ambiguously either Vlach or Albanian. However, Mirčevska's arguments for this are extremely weak and are not substantiated. They are also contradicted by onomastic/etymologic evidence and the works of Ottomanist scholars who have translated the defters.

Firstly, Mirčevska argues that the non-Slavic personal names recorded must have been predominantly Vlach as the modern Albanian population of Upper Reka no longer uses the names recorded in the Ottoman defter. This logic is obviously extremely flawed (clearly anachronistic) and does not take into consideration the socio-cultural shifts and history of the region - for example the Islamisation of the local Albanians, resulting in the abandonment of Albanian Christian personal names in favour of Muslim anthroponyms. Mirčevska also treats the Albanian community of Upper Reka as separate from other Albanian groups, neglecting the fact that such names are in fact very frequent among modern Albanian Christians. She also does not provide any evidence to suggest that the majority of the recorded names are used in modern Vlach communities, thereby creating a contradiction in her own argument.

As for the majority of the non-Slavic anthroponyms attested in the defters, such as those listed above, they can be demonstrated as Albanian - be that due to them belonging to the Albanian milieu or their etymologies being Albanian. The first two that I have listed - Gerg and Gon - are simply Ottoman Turkish renditions of the Albanian Christian names Gjergj and Gjon which are still very common names today. Progon and Tanush are typical Albanian anthroponyms, spread across medieval Albanian communities as has been displayed in archival studies - such as those done by prominent Ottomanists including Pulaha. The latter is the Albanian development of Tanusius < Athanasius, Tanush does not develop in Aromanian. Names such as Bard (rendition of Bardhë) and Meksha have unambiguously Albanian etymologies; the former being from bardhë ('white') while the latter can be etymologised from meksh meaning 'bull-calf'.

As such, sentences such as 'names in these villages show Slavic and Vlach and/or Albanian character.' are extremely misleading, especially when they can be demonstrated as erroneous and when the cited authors provide no evidence to substantiate them.

Mirčevska also perpetuates anti-Albanian claims and sentiments of mass Albanisation of the local Vlach and Slavic population during the 18th century as a result of migrations from modern Albania. This is completely false and her 'evidence' is again erroneous. Mirčevska claims that the local Albanian dialect shows relics of Vlach terms, her example being krushk ('male-in-law'). However, krushk cannot be derived from Vlach/Aromanian - it is from Latin consocer via a Vulgar Latin source. The term is spread across the Albanian dialects. Medieval documents also attest to a local Albanian population prior to the 18th century.

All in all, this is enough to constitute WP:FRINGE. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 19:48, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

I didn't "recently readd", I reverted its recent removal for which I did not see sufficient rationale. As you've laid it out here, the argument seems to be that there is no way any of these could have a Vlach origin, whereas Mirčevska leaves it open, arguing the origin cannot be determined definitively as Albanian or Aromanian.

I don't have a grasp of Aromanian, but I am able to reasonably find at least of couple of these in Romanian. I'm wondering if @Super Dromaeosaurus: could provide some insight here as to whether it is indeed extraordinary to suggest these name origins could be Aromanian. --Local hero ^talk 23:51, 27 March 2023 (UTC)

Some do not look Aromanian, but some definitively do. I wouldn't expect Gerg, Gon or Progon (though I know some Aromanians had surnames like Gonha, which also does not sound typically Aromanian). Still I'd expect Tanush, Meksha (perhaps as Mecsha) and Bard (perhaps as Bãrd or Bardu), those do sound more Aromanian. Let's not forget the obvious fact that Albanian and Aromanian may have influenced each other, some Albanian names might have gotten integrated into Aromanian and viceversa. I also see some other possibly Aromanian names such as Andreya (easily Andrei), Dzheko (Djeco, Dzheco) or Miho. I think it should be okay to include these claims if they remain attributed to Mirčevska. Maybe we could rewrite the sentences to "could have been of Albanian or Aromanian origin" or something like that. The original research and argumentation of Wikipedia users holds no weight. I will note disqualifying a source requires a formal process and not some message in a talk page. Lezhjani1444 definitively cannot name sources as fringe by themselves, and it will not be allowed. Super Ψ Dro 10:21, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Tanush, Meksha, and Bard are not Aromanian by any means. As has been explained above, Tanush is the Albanian derivation of Tanusius (< Athanasius) - in Aromanian and related languages, such as Romanian, the derivation is akin to Tănase and Atanasie. Meksha is directly from Albanian meksh ('bull-calf') and Bard is the Ottoman transcription of Bardhë due to reasons of Ottoman Turkish phonology not accommodating Albanian /dh/. It is directly from Albanian bardhë ('white'). They are typical pan-Albanian names. This much is clear in the works of Ottomanist scholars who directly work with the Ottoman registers. We cannot include them as potentially Aromanian because they subjectively 'sound more Aromanian'. Aromanians adopting Albanian personal names is another issue and does not nullify the fact that the anthroponyms themselves are Albanian, if an Albanian bore the name Bogdan - he still bore a Slavic name.

Andre(y)a is a general Christian name that does not bear any ethno-linguistic connotations. It appears across the Ottoman registers and across different geographical regions. And Miho is a Slavic diminutive of Michael. As for sources, Pulaha (1974) provides a good outline on what anthroponyms can be considered Albanian, Slavic, generally Christian etc. I can compile a list of sources to add to the discussion if that is desirable. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 10:48, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Do you think you'd be able to find authors criticising Mirčevska's points? That would make removal of content more strongly justified. Super Ψ Dro 11:58, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

@Super Dromaeosaurus: In what way do Tanush, Meksha, Bard sound more Aromanian? These are typical Albanian names and you won't find anywhere in bibliography anything different. They are literally Albanian words. There is nothing in bibliography which suggests anything different for these names. The idea that generic Christian names like Michael and Andrea are Aromanian won't find any correspondence in bibliography as well. Thus, Mirčevska's claims are by definition WP:FRINGE.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:25, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It was original research, my opinion from experience. And Thus, Mirčevska's claims are by definition WP:FRINGE is too your own opinion. Again, there is a formal process for determining that in Wikipedia. Super Ψ Dro 20:50, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It's not my opinion. I can produce a list of 100 reliable sources all of which consider the name written as Bard (< bardhë white) as Albanian. It's something that falls under WP:SKYISBLUE in terms of bibliography. But you won't be able to find any reliable sources which will back up Mirčevska.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:00, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Fringe theories/Noticeboard would be the place to present this. --Local hero ^talk 16:04, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Can you find sources on the etymological background of names like Bardh, Gjergj, Meksh, Tanush and Progon? Paste them here please. Alltan (talk) 09:36, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

No one has provided any sources in this discussion yet. We have your side taking a "bluesky" approach to these etymologies and we have @Super Dromaeosaurus: stating that some of the names indeed "look Aromanian". So, it does not yet appear clear to me that the author's claims that the origins could be Vlach and/or Albanian as wildly fringe. I will, however, invite you again to do this process properly at WP:Fringe theories/Noticeboard, as opposed to reverting to a version without consensus. --Local hero ^talk 15:19, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

• @Local hero: Explaining why names Meksh and Bardh are Albanian and not something else does fall under WP:BLUESKY, but hundreds of sources can be produced. Albert Doja. Rituals of Naming and Exposure: Meaning and Signification in a Name. Onoma: Journal of the International Council of Onomastic Sciences, 2006, 41, pp.237-270. ff10.2143/ONO.41.0.2119618ff. ffhalshs-00629438f: Systems of appellations also have their “abstracts”. Essentially, Albanian person names may also be nouns designating abstract concepts, for example: Bashkim, ‘union’, Bessa, Blerim, ‘greenery’, Bukuri, ‘beauty’, Liri, ‘freedom’, Lumturi, ‘happiness’, Çlirim, ‘liberation’, Gazmend, ‘joy’, Fitore, ‘victory’, Pranverë, ‘spring’, Shpresa, ‘hope’, etc. Names used for either men or women can also be formed from descriptive adjectives, like Bardh, ‘white’, Besnik, ‘faithful’, Blerta, ‘verdant’, Krenar, ‘proud’, Luftar, ‘brave’, Mira, ‘kind’, Trim, ‘courageous’, Urta, ‘wise’, etc Mirčevska should be removed throughout the article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 09:24, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

  I see it's your shift to take this on, nice team structure you all have. I don't see Tanush, Meksha, or Bard in your quote, nor do I see support that these can't have origins in Aromanian. Why are you, and the rest of the team, so reluctant to just bring it up at the noticeboard, rather than revert war? --Local hero ^talk 19:37, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I have been discussing about Talk:Upper Reka#Mircevska with Alltan and Resnjari on this talkpage since April 2022 and it's April 2023. Names used for either men or women can also be formed from descriptive adjectives, like Bardh, ‘white’. In terms of bibliography, there is no active debate as there are no sources to support Mirčevska and you haven't found any of them. When you write Meksha, all you're doing is that you're writing the definite variant of Meksh (as in Lekë/Leka) which means buffalo-calf (Orel 2000). A single source produced within the Historiography in North Macedonia which produces statements which are WP:FRINGE cannot get undue weight in any article.--Maleschreiber (talk) 10:11, 3 April 2023 (UTC)

Yes and I see Resnjari has explained why Mirčevska's analysis belongs ("her ethnography is basically the last study of its type on the Orthodox", etc.). In the sentence preceding what you've deleted, Murati also points to names with a Vlach and/or Albanian origin.

Again, if it is so obviously fringe, I'm not sure why you can't just take it to the noticeboard and settle it. --Local hero ^talk 03:25, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

In fact, Murati (2011) is not in agreeance with Mirčevska's assertion(s) - as has been pointed out by Resnjari in the previous discussion. It is Palikruševa's opinion (as Murati cites) that the attested non-Slavic anthroponyms are generally ambiguous and could imply either an Albanian or Vlach origin of the recorded individuals, with Mirčevska taking this to the extreme by arguing that these names were solely Vlach based on her incorrect and anachronistic assumptions. Murati considers the vast majority of these non-Slavic names to be Albanian in character:

Për ilustrim do të përmendim dy-tri fshatra nga kjo krahinë: Niçpur: Gjon Dum, Pop Nikolla, Mesio Sholed, Gjon Shirqe, Gjoro Qirqe, Kole Dum, Çiko i biri i Qirkos, Petko i biri i Miko-s; Brodec: Like Mihail, Plise Nikosllav, Stanishe Xaxi, Llazar Mihail; Strazimir: Kole Shirki, Kole Riç, Gjon Shirki, Kole Mihail, Pal Mihail; Vërben: Girgj Lluç, Markin Popoviq, Vasill..., Menko...Vasko Lluç, Llazar Kolje, Petar Skore, Shuk Rusi, Kole Dornaj, Petar Riç, etj. Si rezultat i kësaj, pra i pranisë së ndjeshme të elementit shqiptar në Rekën e Epërme qysh në gjysmën e shek. 15, kjo studiuese arrin në konstatim e drejtë kur thotë: "Elementi dominant etnik josllav në Rekën e Epërme në këtë periodë (në gjysmën e shek. 15) na jep një pasqyrë krejt tjetër rreth çështjes së gjuhës amtare shqipe te popullsia e krishterë e kësaj zone, e cila sot ndjehet dhe si maqedonase. Shpjegimi i shfaqjes së këtij fenomeni nga disa punonjës shkencorë si rezultat i pranimit të gjuhës shqipe nga ana e sllavëve maqedonas me qëllim që ta ruajnë besimin e krishterë, vështirë se mund të pranohet”.

[For an illustration, we will mention two or three villages in this province: Niçpur: Gjon Dum, Pop Nikolla, Mesio Sholed, Gjon Shirqe, Gjoro Qirqe, Kole Dum, Çiko i biri i Qirkos, Petko i biri i Miko-s; Brodec: Like Mihail, Plise Nikosllav, Stanishe Xaxi, Llazar Mihail; Strazimir: Kole Shirki, Kole Riç, Gjon Shirki, Kole Mihail, Pal Mihail; Vërben: Girgj Lluç, Markin Popoviq, Vasill..., Menko...Vasko Lluç, Llazar Kolje, Petar Skore, Shuk Rusi, Kole Dornaj, Petar Riç, etc. As a result of this, so sensitive is the presence of the Albanian element in Reka Upper in the middle of the 15th century that this reasercher reaches the right conclusion when he says: The dominant non-slavic ethnic element in Upper Reka in this period(during the middle half of the 15th century) gives us a completely different picture about the issue of language the Albanian of the native Christian population of this area, which today feels and is known as Macedonian. Explaining the occurrence of this phenomenon by some works of researchers as a result of accepting the Albanian language by Macedonian Slavs in order to preserve the Christian faith, can hardly be accepted]

Po t`u referohemi regjistrave turq të sheh. 15-të, në Vilajetin e Rekës (Vilayet-i Reka, Defteri Nr. 508, 1467), shohim se edhe në vendbanime të tjera të Rekës së Epërme dhe asaj të Poshtme hasim me shumicë persona që mbajnë emra shqiptarë, si: në Vollkovi: Progon Tome; Tërnicë (regjistruar Tirniça): Gerg, i biri i Andreas; Vërben (Virbin): Petar Tanusheviq, Gin Shimjat, Gin Gegoviq; Krakornicë: Gon Duçe, Gon Kirkit, Miho Meksha; Nistrovë: Kole Bard, Gon Pashajet; Ribnicë: Miho Tanusheviq, Bojko Tanusheviq, etj. (TD 1976).

[I refer you to the Turkish records of the 15th century of the Vilayet of Reka (Vilayet-i Reka, Defteri Nr. 508, 1467), we see that even in other Upper Reka settlements and that of the lower one encounters people holding Albanian names like: Volkovija: Progon Tome; Trnica (regjistruar Tirniça): Gerg, son of Andreas; Vrben (Virbin): Petar Tanusheviq, Gin Shimjat, Gin Gegoviq; Krakornica: Gon Duçe, Gon Kirkit, Miho Meksha; Nistrovo: Kole Bard, Gon Pashajet; Ribnica: Miho Tanusheviq, Bojko Tanusheviq, etc.]

So it is clear that Palikruševa accepts an Albanian presence in Upper Reka on account of the recorded anthroponyms, but still maintaining some position of uncertainty, while Murati outright considers names such as Gjergj, Gjon, Progon, Tanush, Bardh, and Meksha to be Albanian. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 17:16, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

I don't believe any of the text in question stated a "solely Vlach" origin of names. --Local hero ^talk 18:43, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Local hero have you found any source which doesn't consider Gjergj, Gjon, Progon, Tanush, Bardh or Meksh to be Albanian names? If not, then Mirčevska falls under the categories of WP:FRINGE and WP:UNDUE. If one view is supported overwhelmingly in bibliography, while the other doesn't find any support, then it falls under these two categories.--Maleschreiber (talk) 20:27, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

The full quoted text is: "Gerg son of Andreya, Dabich Loz(e) Progon Tome, Dzheko son of Gerg, Miho Meksha, Petko son of Miho." Mirčevska does not state that Gerg, Progon, and Meksha cannot be Albanian in origin, but states that it cannot be said with certainty that "Gerg son of Andreya", "Progon Tome", "Miho Meksha", etc. cannot have some Vlach origin. --Local hero ^talk 21:06, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

The people themselves could be of distant Armenian, Greek, Cuman or Gothic origin for all we care about. But those names were Albanian (Gerg, Progon, Meksha), Slavic (Tome and Miho) and generally Christian (Andreja). No traces of Aromanian here. If an author wants to make a claim for an Aromanian component in Upper Reka, they can do so, but not by using Albanian onomastic markers and claiming them as Vlach.Alltan (talk) 21:53, 7 April 2023 (UTC)

Mirčevska states the following:

Во Пописниот дефтер од XV век во тогашните населени места во горнореканскиот простор се среќаваат лични имиња од словенски и од несловенски карактер. Релатвно е тешко да се утврди потеклото на овие имиња, дали станува збор за влашки или албански имиња. Но, бидеќи во денешните албански имиња не постои ниту едно од тогашните, се чини дека влашките лични имиња во тој период преовладувале во пределот. На тоа ни асоцираат имињата Блаше Тануш, Гон Влаш, Дука (Дока) Михаил, Лазар (син на) Калина, Михо Шалис. Неспорно е дека дел од овие горнорекански семејства имаат подалечно влашко потекло кое во периодот пред XV век почнало интензивно да се словенизира. Но, претрпува и ароманско (влашко) влијание врз имињата претрпува и албанската популација во овој предел, како и во некои од соседните. Токму затоа, речиси е невозможно со сигурност да се каже дали во некои случаи станува збор за албанско, влашко или меѓусебно етничко проникнување сведочат и имињата: Герг син на Андреја, Дабич Лоз(е), Прогон Томе, Цеко син на Герг, Михо Мекша, Петко син на Михо.

[In the census books from the 15th century within contemporary settlements in the Upper Reka area are encountered names of a Slavic and non-Slavic character. It is relatively difficult to determine the origin of these names, whether it was Aromanian or Albanian names. But, given that within current day Albanian names there is not one from then; it seems that Vlach names at that time prevailed in the area. With that we associate the names Vlash Tanush, Gon Vlash, Duka (Doka) Mihail, Lazar (son of) Kalina, Miho Shalis. It is undisputed that some of these Upper Reka families have distant Vlach origins that in the period before the 15th century began intensively to become slavicised. Yet there endures the Aromanian (Vlach) impact on names and is sustained also on the Albanian population in this region, as in some neighboring areas. Therefore, it is almost impossible to say for certain whether in some cases the Albanian, Vlach ethnic or mutual interpenetration that testify to names: Gerg son of Andreya, Dabich Loz(e) Progon Tome, Dzheko son of Gerg, Miho Meksha, Petko son of Miho.]

Yes she does not claim that they were exclusively Vlach, but it is made implicit that the vast majority are; giving examples to Albanian names such as Gjon and Tanush. As well as general Christian names such as Vlash (< Blasius). She then goes on to argue that perhaps names such as Gjergj and Progon may be either Albanian or Vlach, but fitting into her full argument - she considers them most likely Vlach. Lezhjani1444 (talk) 11:14, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

To all in here, note i added Mircevska in whole when i wrote nearly most of this article. Why you may think? Because it's the last ethnography about the Orthodox population of Upper Reka. Mircevska is an Anthropologist. Yes, she does perpetuate on certain matters the Albanisation theory on which she has been taken to task by Murati on the kinship terms matter and Murati cites Macedonian academic Palikruseva whose expertise was Ottoman defters that, at least when it came to Upper Reka there is a discernible medieval Albanian presence. That said, Murati in his "Gjuha e humber" (2011) study notes on p.101 regarding Mircevska: "The book under review is a monographic publication without a doubt of value, in the sense that it brings a lot of data and information of interest to the material and spiritual life of the population of the Upper Reka region, but interpreted one-sidedly with strong nationalist ideology. Loaded with the ideology and myth of Slavic Macedonian nationalism, in order to present this population as "Albanianized Slavs", the evidence that Mirčevska's book brings speaks for the opposite of her wishes - for "Slavised Albanians"."

Sure, no doubt i can already see some of you say (or even think) but Resnjari, Murati points out that parts of the book has nationalist ideology, how could you stick with this source? Shame, you should know better. Because i have it, i read it (most of Mircevska is not problematic, and has been a great asset to filling gaps on this article) and Murati critiques the bits that are problematic like the matter on kinship. That's why i included Murati’s critique and he even shows how Mircevska contradicts herself. But some of you will still say, you shouldn't insist on these bits, they have been removed by some editors.

Here is the thing everyone, you can't avoid this and Murati himself concedes Mircevska's study is "without a doubt of value", and getting it done away with at the noticeboards may not be easy as some think, unlike other sources which are completely useless and utterly fringe. Like the Souliotes article where certain Greek academics interpreted language issues in a ‘complicated manner’ i.e Protopsaltis, and have been taken to taken to task by others like Psimouli, you have to deal with it, just like it was done in that article. And in this case i will go into why. Mircevska's views on this matter about Upper Reka Albanian speakers being "Albanianised Slavs" go deeper than her in the (non-Albanian) scholarship of the Balkans, and are elements present in non-Albanian societies surrounding Albanians (or Albanian speakers) in the Balkans when it comes to this topic. They are also something to which Orthodox Upper Reka Albanian speakers say as well, to explain why their communities were Albanian speakers in the past (they made a documentary: [3] – and Mircevska makes an appearance, even though some of those people in that documentary have been recorded in other media segments speaking Albanian reluctantly [4]). Now we can remove those paragraphs via deletion by citing WP:FRINGE, but by doing so it will put off the very audiences this article might reach or be of interest too as they will dismiss the Wikipedia page. Why, because the things they heard about this topic in their community or read about it in certain scholarship is not there and let’s face it, the critiques and rebuttal will come off as biased if the bit from Mircevska is not there. Instead by having Mircevska, followed by Murati’s critique of certain points which is very thorough, you can reach these people by engagement and widening their knowledge through critical thinking on the subject by transcending the nationalist tropes and sources which have followed this topic from more than a century.Resnjari (talk) 16:16, 27 October 2023 (UTC)