Talk:Urban cluster (France)

Requested move 18 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus: WP:UE was cited as a reason not to move whereas WP:COMMONNAME was cited as a reason to move. I think one relist without any further input is enough. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 23:31, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

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Urban cluster (France) → Pôle urbain – The redirect Urban cluster targets United States urban area, and I've hatnoted that, but this article never used "urban cluster" (I have just added that, it's the official INSEE translation). It may be better, considering WP:UE, to move it back over its French-language redirect. The article is perhaps a WP:DICDEF, anyway. 94.21.253.25 (talk) 05:25, 18 January 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. Dekimasuよ! 07:57, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

One reason I think it would be better at the French title is that, in an article, it would probably be piped as just "urban cluster", this then is a MOS:EGG when it's a technical definition. More likely editors will write "pôle urbain" anyway.

Except for the hatnote, pôle urbain has all the incoming links (three of them), not the actual article. Thie short article itself erroneously linked to urban area instead of urban unit, and to commuter belt instead of couronne périurbaine (→ Periphery (France)). So similar considerations apply to many of the English article names for French statisitical areas. It looks like the INSEE have changed the names or definitions of a few over the last decade: e.g. a couronne périurbaine is now just a couronne. 94.21.253.25 (talk) 05:43, 18 January 2019 (UTC)

Hello - I moved this article to an English namespace because it was one of few French demographic (term) articles that hadn't been at the time. I took the official INSEE translation as a guide... as I wasn't going to 'invent' a translation (as was done elsewhere with other French demographics terms). There was also a bit of 'use English only' fad going on at the time (move requests).

I'd be all for using the original French terminology, as INSEE translations (and the reasoning behind them) tend to be misleading (and often in conflict with the 'already defined' English term), but would Wikipedia? If things have died down a bit with the 'use English only'-enforcers, great. TP ✎ ✓ 15:33, 26 January 2019 (UTC)

PS: as this could concern all French demographics terms, perhaps it would be a great idea to take this discussion somewhere more general. Cheers. TP ✎ ✓ 15:35, 26 January 2019 (UTC)::

@ThePromenader: I'm all for publicising it more generally. I agree that at least the French names will be more stable (even if INSEE's definitions of them change!) and to have ad-hoc translations of these technical meanings is not helpful to English Wikipedia. I don't know about the WP:UE fad, but these are INSEE terms, in Category:INSEE concepts, in one sense they are not English or French since French: couronne patently in general French does not mean what it means to the INSEE. So while it might be useful to disambiguate as "Urban cluster (INSEE)", it is not useful to disambiguate as "Urban cluster (France)". I am not sure what WikiProject to ping about this, but I agree it should be more widely discussed. (Nominator, IP changed) 94.21.204.175 (talk) 15:41, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

While at first thought "couronne (INSEE)" seems ideal, one would have to know what the INSEE was to know that it is a demographics term. Yet "couronne (French demographics)" is a bit long and clunky. Also, as the average English-speaker would not know what 'couronne' even designates (here I am going WP:UE-happy), pointing users to the right place would depend on linking (not helpful for Google searches). And yet another obstacle: if we are to use English terms, they must be the ones provided by the INSEE, otherwise it would be wikipedians telling readers what the 'right' term 'should' be, and that's WP:OR.

A catch-22 stickly situation for sure. Unless another solution is found, I think we're condemned to using the English term (and condemned to follow the INSEE's updates), but perhaps a clearer disambiguation than France would already be an improvement. Cheers. TP ✎ ✓ 16:58, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

Well, we have WP:COMMONNAME. None of the INSEE translations is the common English name, because common name in English sources is the French. So we might as well use it. 94.21.204.175 (talk) 17:30, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

When an English speaker is looking up articles with shared base page names, they don't have to guess the disambiguator, they just have to feel comfy that when they see it, it's liikely to indicate the article they are interested in, out of those on offer. Editors have a harder time, but that is why we have WP:TESTLINK. 94.21.204.175 (talk) 17:46, 29 January 2019 (UTC)

I'm game for the 'to French' namespace, but perhaps we should widen this discussion a bit, first, to get some consensus and avoid any backlash (I spent ten years fighting one particular contributor (and their meat-puppet army) pushing their inventive 'metropolitan area' translation (when the INSEE uses 'urban area'). This move would mean an end to that, too (although the INSEE has recently adopted a 'aire metropolitaine' terminology that can technically be translated to 'metropolitan area' (but it isn't, hardly anywhere)). But that contributor has been banned from editing Paris pages, and all has been calm since years now, but just so you know. Cheers. TP ✎ ✓ 19:19, 30 January 2019 (UTC)

• Strong oppose per WP:USEENGLISH. This proposed title is completely incomprehensible to anyone who doesn't speak French. Red Slash 01:59, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

The current title is completely incomprehensible to anyone who doesn't speak INSEE. It's not a common name in English. It's like we have TGV, we don't call it High Speed Train (France).

And readers will still have the English-language redirect. 94.21.238.64 (talk) 18:27, 3 February 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.