Talk:VHS/Archive 4

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

Archive 6

A basic history of the format

One thing the article would benefit from is a basic history of the format, particularly the early period. The development is briefly mentioned in the opening paragraphs, and from that point onwards the article concentrates on the format's technical characteristics and legacy. Why was it designed, to what specification, by whom, and during which time period? When were the first players launched, and how was it received by the press? How long did it take to become popular? This is only covered in very skimpy detail. The article on the Videotape format war seems to have a more thorough explanation of this (perhaps it was part of this article in the past, and has been split off). -Ashley Pomeroy (talk) 22:44, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

Few issues with your suggestions. First, you do realize that the Videotape format war article is poorly sourced. See the comments at the top of that article. In the VHS article, we stick with the sourced and verifiable information. Much of what you added earlier from that format war article is unsourced. For example, the battle between Sony Betamax and VHS is objective. I believe the battle was an example of media hype, in that there were many other formats other than these two. So, to pit these two formats against each other - it is like saying Tiger Woods and Phil Mickelson are rivals, when Tiger has many other rivals and doesn't treat them any different. VHS had many "battles", but it won the "war."

Second, the actual history of VHS is made up mostly of folklore. Very little to no English-written sources are available that discuss the true stories of the development of VHS, the first markets it hit, and so forth. There may be some useful information in the Japanese Wikipedia article - as VHS was developed in Japan. This is why this article does not cover the non-technical stories.

So once again, before comparing this article to another Wikipedia article, make sure the other article is fully sourced first, and then start bringing the sourced information here. Groink (talk) 08:02, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

One question about HiFi sound article doesn't explain...

Okay, so the HiFi Stereo sound is recorded along with the picture signal. However, the picture signal isn't continuous- it's striped diagonally and breaks at the edges. Of course, this is fine for video, as it's made up of separate fields- 50 or 60 per second. However, audio is continuous. Since the sound is analogue, it can't be buffered, so surely the gaps in the signal would cause some sort of interference in the sound that could (at best) be minimised, but not removed? Ubcule (talk) 01:15, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Additional; came across this article which suggests that the signal *does* have to be joined between switching heads. Ubcule (talk) 01:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, just as with video, the HiFi audio signal is recorded by alternating video heads who are switched 50 (or 60, depending on th evideo standard) times a second. This is audible as a low frequency buzz, called "head switching noise". VHS uses dbx audio compansion to mask this noise, but it is not perfect. With good recordings played on the same deck they were recorded on, it is virtually inaudible, but with badly aligned decks playing a tape recorded on a different deck it can become quite pronounced. On better decks you have head adjustment to minimise the effect. Anorak2 (talk) 15:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

That's very useful, thank you. Ubcule (talk) 21:16, 15 December 2009 (UTC)

PVRs

Do you reckon PVRs (TiVo, Sky+ etc.) should have a mention in the successors section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.153.140.246 (talk) 19:46, 5 February 2010 (UTC)

PVR is more commonly known as DVR, which is mentioned in this article. Groink (talk) 09:12, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

In the UK, PVR is emerging as the acronyn of choice.... [1] Hardylane (talk) 15:26, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

Quoting the DVR article on English Wikipedia: "The label PVR has almost fallen completely into disuse in United States trade news media (it is still use in the United Kingdom and South Africa) in favor of the more popular DVR descriptor. The name PVR never really caught on, although its use has not entirely vanished." With that, I wouldn't say the use of PVR in the UK/SA is "emerging"; rather I'd say the use of PVR is "stuck" in those places, and I don't see the use of the acronym growing. I also think PVR assumes "personal" use, and it does not reflect the fact that a video recorder recording digitally can also be used commercially. For example, many companies record their security cameras digitally, and companies who sell digital security equipment use DVR. DVR can then apply to both home and commercial. And checking Google, even the dot-co-dot-uk stores are split between PVR for home, DVR for business, and PVR/DVR when they're trying to sell to both. I don't know why they're doing this. I'd say just stick to one acronym. Groink (talk) 23:50, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

D-VHS

It says D-VHS allows 1080p, while the wiki about D-VHS says it supports up to 1080i/720p.217.102.250.153 (talk) 10:05, 19 March 2010 (UTC)

Tape rot

I was wondering if someone knew more on tape rot? Perhaps just a rumor? Or baking tapes, where old tapes become brittle, if they aren't out right cracked you can bake the tapes and get a little more life out of them, enough to transfer to another format. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.210.170.143 (talk) 22:46, 10 April 2010 (UTC)

I recently experienced VHS tape rot. I had a VHS tape, circa 1985. Fortunately the time I played this tape, I was also converting it to DVD. After the tape completed play, the player tried to re-wind, but would stop. I took the tape out, and was faced with millions of tiny pieces of magnetic tape material in the machine. The transparent tape didn't break; the magnetic material became very brittle, and crumbled off the tape right after it passed through the read head. Quite a mess! I don't know exactly how one would avoid this - as you'll more likely discover the brittle problem when trying to play the tape like I did. I guess you could inspect the tape before inserting it into the player. Groink (talk) 07:26, 12 April 2010 (UTC)

The problem comes about because the binder material that holds the magnetic material to the plastic backing tape ages and can change its characteristics. It can become brittle and crack as the tape is unwound from the supply spool (the effect that you notice). I have even encountered binder that retains its flexibility but becomes slightly 'sticky' so that instead of the tape passing the head steadily as disired, it passes in a series of jerks as the tension repeatedly overcomes the 'sticktion'. On video it can render the video unplayable and at worst can shatter the video heads. On audio tapes the tape just emits a sqealing sound as it passes the head (audible on the reproduced sound). 86.182.66.217 (talk) 18:21, 29 May 2010 (UTC)

Which Issue Tags to Insert?

I think I found unresolved issues, such as poor organization and attracting those who are into too many details more than an average person. I do not know where to tag these issues at: the top of the article or under one of the section headings. Express your opinions, please. --Gh87 (talk) 02:17, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Panasonic VP recording speed

Just bringing it up, but many recent Panasonic VHS/DVD combo units record VP in VP mode. A T-120 holds 10 hours and some minutes of content in VP mode. A T-200 holds 16 hours and 55 minutes, and a DF-240 holds, I think, over 30 hours. No information of this VP mode in this article? Why not? Fictional Science Sextuple Feature! 19:48, 3 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by MagentaTimCurryElbowSex (talk • contribs)

Are there any web sites that talk about VP mode? Or at least a table showing the tape type and recording time? Groink (talk) 23:26, 3 July 2010 (UTC)

VHS-ET

It doesn't allow "standard units" to *record* S-VHS onto standard VHS tape. It allows an S-VHS VCR to record S-VHS onto standard VHS tape. A standard VHS VCR with VHS-ET can *play* S-VHS recordings from S-VHS tapes. User's manuals for S-VHS VCRs with VHS-ET usually say that S-VHS recordings made on standard tapes will most likely not play back on any other VCR, even another S-VHS unit with VHS-ET. To record S-VHS requires either an S-Video or component video input so the quality of the signals is there to record. Standard VHS VCRs only have composite video inputs. Bizzybody (talk) 07:30, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

I noticed that too, and fixed it. I work with S-VHS quite a bit but someone may want to review it for accuracy. Brock1912 (talk) 18:29, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

I think that there should be something said about what video did to the porn industry and the availability of pornography to the average person.

VHS, Vertical Helical Scan?

In the article, it says that VHS stands for video home system, but I thought it stood for vertical helical scan. The "video home system" was a backronym because "vertical helical scan" sounded too technical. Shouldn't the article address this? I just think this should be mentioned somewhere. Mainly I think it's just a continuity sort of thing, as the article on Wikipedia for DVD lists both its actual name (digital versatile disc) and its common name (digital video disc). I think just for that reason, some mention should be made of the original meaning of VHS. 76.84.99.42 (talk) 05:07, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

How can VHS stand for "vertical", when VHS actually uses a "diagonal" helical scan system? Subscribing to your theory, it would have then been "DHS". All magnetic tape mediums use diagonal - including even Betamax. Groink (talk) 05:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Revisionist nonsense.... it was NEVER "Vertical Helical Scan"... we have been over this time and again. If people think it WAS then they are misled or mistaken. The term "Video Home System" was coined by the inventors themselves. NSB.... no such backronym. Hardylane (talk) 06:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, Video Home System defies English grammar, as it should be HVS, Home Video System. Perhaps further investigation is warranted. —ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (ᚷᛖᛋᛈᚱᛖᚳ) 03:55, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

"Video Home System" was coined by the Japanese.IEEE History Center: Development of VHS Assume Victor's people speak English as a second language. Groink (talk) 04:42, 13 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you kidding me? You tagged it with a "fact" tag? The world's first VHS VCR was introduced to the entire free world in Akihabara, Tokyo, Japan in 1976. Where do you think JVC/Victor is based in? Yokohama, Japan. There's a Japanese movie out by TOEI, and created with the blessing of JVC called Hi wa Mata Noboru. In the movie, they have a scene where they're designing the VHS logo. One guy asks (in nihongo at that) what VHS stands for, and the other says "Video Home System". Because JVC supervised the production of this movie, and seeing JVC/Victor invented VHS, I would say that this is compelling evidence that JVC themselves approved of the meaning of VHS. Groink (talk) 05:01, 18 March 2011 (UTC)

You mad? —ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (ᚷᛖᛋᛈᚱᛖᚳ) 15:28, 21 March 2011 (UTC)

I figure as much.... a troll. An unhelpful, noncontributing troll at that. The West didn't even see, yet carry a VHS VCR out of a store for at least one year after Akihabara received theirs in 1976. For VHS as an acronym to go undefined for nearly two years until the Europeans got ahold of it... Nope. Groink (talk) 05:39, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I already said perhaps further investigation is warranted, meaning, why dont you take that lil video of yours and put it in the article as a citation, instead of getting mad at everything that isnt Japanese Anime nerddom. —ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (ᚷᛖᛋᛈᚱᛖᚳ) 17:00, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

How about accepting that the "further investigation" has already been done, without insulting people who are clearly better informed than yourself. Do we have to re-investigate it every time some ill-informed person comes along and digs this hoary old subject up? It was never "Vertical Helical Scan". It was never "Home Video System". It was "Video Home System". I remember the literature, standees and promotional material that was sent to the trade at the time. Sadly, I cannot cite my memory, but I can certainly declare that any variations of this are, as previously stated, a) Misinformation, or b) shoddy memories.

Hardylane (talk) 23:32, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

See, you dont even remember. How can I trust that? —ᚹᚩᛞᛖᚾᚻᛖᛚᛗ (ᚷᛖᛋᛈᚱᛖᚳ) 00:34, 23 March 2011 (UTC)

Discussion ended. Troll. Hardylane (talk) 10:57, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

I think that there should be something said about what VHS did to the porn industry and the availability of pornography to the average person.

I think that there should be something said about what video did to the porn industry and the availability of pornography to the average person. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.190.153.192 (talk) 05:53, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

Really?? The same could be said about any media carried on the VHS format. Films were not previously available to the public either. I don't see any value in focussing exclusively on one type of content. Hardylane (talk) 11:49, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

I've heard many stories along the line of porn. For example, I've heard that Sony attempted to play the same game regarding porn as Apple did with the iTunes Store, by banning porn on Betamax tape. The theory is that porn shifted away from Betamax and over to VHS because of Sony. However, porn during the 1970s and 1980s wasn't exactly produced by a major company - rather, most of them were underground or nearly underground. So, I don't see how Sony could have control of the porn industry as people are suggesting. Further research suggests that there were equal amounts of porn across both formats early on. And, indeed by the late 1980s there was more porn on VHS than Betamax. But you can make the same trend argument with any other genre - movies, documentaries, etc. The shift was post-VHS format war win. The winning format will always bring the film industry its way. Speculations like these don't belong in this article. Groink (talk) 01:23, 30 March 2011 (UTC)

The statement that Betamax blocked the porn industry from large access to their format is backed up on the video tape format war as well as the Betamax page itself. It is a relevant issue. Because of home systems, porn shifted from adult theatres, to home systems. Since Sony tried to fight that from happening, then what Groink is saying isn't entirely true, or focal to the point. VHS succeeded in both the porn home video, as well as the mainstream film home video markets (due to two-hour tapes being able to hold an entire film on one cassette, thus being more practical), and that was a trend that I do believe started happening BEFORE the format war was outright won by VHS. I'd say more research in to this is needed before we outright declare that it wasn't a matter at all. Based on what I've learned from the respective articles, they WERE major points, and should be addressed. StrangeApparition2011 (talk) 02:03, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

The point I tried to make is that it is impossible for a company to control what was during the 1970s and 1980s an underground pornography industry. Porn at the time wasn't commonplace or accepted like it is today with Vivid, Jenna Jameson and the like. In the U.S. for example, much of the porn was created by hippies in California and New York, and were produced and distributed to porn shops and movie theaters without going through a major distribution system. Same thing with porn in Europe. Porn in Japan was still run by the yakuza through much of the 1990s, and only started being accepted when Downtown started introducing porn stars during their prime-time show. I can't see for one minute a company like Sony telling the hippies and even the yakuza, no you can't use Betamax. It's like a plastic bag company telling the drug cartel that cocaine and pot can only be distributed in paper bags. The Betamax/porn tie just doesn't make practical sense. Groink (talk) 06:55, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

Well then you've got something to discuss with people on the talk pages for those articles then. Because the statement that Sony refused to allow any part of the pornography industry to distribute Betamax cassettes is referenced. As well, I'm telling you that you are correct on one level, but you are NOT entirely correct. There absolutely WAS a "mainstream" pornography industry in the 1970's & 1980's. Yes, porn was still largely underground, and home video certainly helped bring it to a commonplace. But I'm sure you've heard of "Deep Throat", "Debbie Does Dallas", "Behind the Green Door", etc. These are movies that were distributed by companies that had a name and means to do so. Meaning, regardless if they were just backwoods hippies, they were still producers and/or distributors, and Sony still knew of their intent and refused to allow them to use their format.

The same analogy could apply if supposing that after Phillips/Sony invented the CD, that Sony refused to allow any artist not signed to Sony's record label to produce their music on CD's. Even if several independent and largely held unaccountable labels and/or artists started doing it, the fact that Sony fought against it WOULD have hurt the compact disc format, and probably inhibited it's success against another format that allowed anyone to use it. I know that right there is a hypothetical example, but it's mired in factual events. This being one. Do you see what I'm saying? Sony's refusal to let the porn industry in, is a relevant piece to the failure of Betamax. StrangeApparition2011 (talk) 07:52, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

The porn claim is only in the Videotape format war article and badly sourced - its sole reference doesn't claim it as a fact:

Ultimately, VHS won the battle, and tech lore has it that the porn industry played a big role in that victory. Sony reportedly wouldn’t let pornographic content be put on Betamax tapes, while JVC and the VHS consortium had no such qualms. (My emphasis)

"Tech lore", nothing more, aka an author who's regurgitating what's been passed as fact for years rather than digging the ground themselves. Does anyone have decent contemporary references from the time that show Sony had this stance - mainstream newspaper coverage or even statements from morality campaigners taking sides in the format war? Timrollpickering (talk) 03:24, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

I've attempted to research this online. Two published books cite a 2000 article written by Kayte Van Scoy when stating the claim that Sony denied licensing to pornographers. That article doesn't appear to offer any references of its own, simply stating "Sony made the now-legendary blunder of refusing to license its Betamax technology to adult-entertainment providers, a decision that allowed VHS to edge Betamax out of the market in the early '80s." Earlier published claims are hard to come by. Google offers up a Snippet View of "Art issues: Issues 31-35" (1994) that says "... licensing rights to Beta, was reluctant to allow the format to be used for pornography, while the owners of VHS technology cheerfully ..." and a novel from 1997 that may feature a character repeating the claim: "'But the pornography licenses had all been nailed by VHS,' I interrupted." This was at least a common rumor by the mid-90s, judging from Usenet posts, as well as responders refuting it by pointing that that porn was available on both formats.

More importantly, I can't find anything to support the idea that content providers even needed a license from the owners of either Beta or VHS in order to reproduce their material on tape. Why would they? What law would enforce this? Actual licensing did exist: to produce the physical tapes and players. Msgohan (talk) 02:15, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Like Msgohan, I too can't for the life of me find any reliable sources that Sony put pressure on the porn industry. Everything I've read on-line so far include key words like "rumor", "tall tale", "I've heard from...." Here's some solid information... VCX - one of the three top distributors of porn during the 1980s to late 1990s - produced titles like Debbie in both Betamax and VHS: [2]. The other two companies released VHS exclusively, but VCX's catalog outnumbered them several times over. I also found a bunch of original Betamax videos of various classic porn movies for sale at eBay and even the Japanese Yahoo Japan auctions site. The Japanese love white women porn! I can't find any concrete, reliable sources of the Sony story, but I'm finding a lot of evidence of the reverse - that the major titles were released in Betamax format. Sony never got to VCX. Groink (talk) 06:58, 9 December 2011 (UTC)

Decline section

Can we try to get this section properly internationalised? At times it's talking explicitly about the US market, at other times worldwide, and some times it's not remotely clear which market is being talked about - e.g. "The final major Hollywood motion picture released on VHS was David Cronenberg's A History of Violence." Is that true for all markets? At least one other 2005 film didn't get a US VHS release but did in other markets. Statements like "For home-video (that is, pre-recorded commercially-released movies, etc.) rental and sales, DVD has almost completely taken the place of VHS." are a little sweeping as there were parts of the world where VHS wasn't the pre-eminent home-video format in the first place.

And I think we need to be careful about listing latter day VHS releases as a sign of the finishing point - there's a world of difference between a company being the last to see ongoing profit potential in the format (or perhaps having long period production/distribution deals tied up), and The House of the Devil which is a 1980s nostalgic piece right down to the filming technique and technology and which included a VHS release as part of such nostalgia. (The article on Paranormal Activity states it also had a US VHS release following a petition - again this sounds gimmicky and nostalgic rather than a final gasp.) Timrollpickering (talk) 16:48, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

When did consumer VHS cameras appear?

At what point in time did consumer VHS cameras become available? Please add! -- 92.226.26.35 (talk) 16:58, 24 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think cameras belong in this article. The article is about the videotape format and the different cassette form factors, and not about the appliance. Although the article discusses certain earlier make/models, it is placed in the article for context - to illustrate the progression of the format. I don't think adding cameras would add to the discussion other than to maybe mention a model or two that uses a certain cassette form factor. Maybe another article can be created that talks more in detail about the VHS players and peripherals such as cameras. I would be for that, and I even have a large quantity of cited data regarding make/models of equipment to add once the article is started. Groink (talk) 07:22, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

VP mode

Panasonic SuperDrive VHS/DVD Recorder combo units have a "VP" mode for VHS tapes for recording. VP mode tapes can only be played on other Panasonic SuperDrive VCRs, but it must be of at least since 2005, I think, and be combo units. According to the manuals by Panasonic (find one, I'm not going to), VP mode is 5 times more. So, SP is 2 hours, LP is 4 hours, EP is 6 hours, and VP is 10 hours. I used a T-200 in VP mode and it held, this particular tape, 17 hours, 54 minutes. While every tape has a different total time, it's about average for T-120s, in VP, to hold 10 hours and 20 minutes, and newer blanks hold 10 hours and 12 minutes.

When VP tapes are played in a normal VCR, the player reads it as EP and plays it at EP speed, giving the impression of Alvin and the Chipmunking the sound. I don't know the lines of resolution of the VP mode, though, but it does record in stereo.

If a tape is in bad condition, and VP mode is picky, the VP mode recording will usually be shaky, though a good degaussing or recording over a few times in VP mode (which takes LOTS of time), may clear up the problems. While these recordings could last quite some time, like LP and EP, I theorize that the recordings will be useless within a decade. No proof.

Well, if somebody wants to verify and source my statements, go right on ahead. Until then, it is what it is. (I will not add to article 'til this information can be verified, regardless if I own a machine and have conducted these experiments on my own.)

Apple8800 (talk) 07:41, 17 May 2011 (UTC)

If such a mode exists, it would be a non-standard speed Not approved by JVC (who own VHS). ---- Theaveng (talk) 21:13, 13 October 2011 (UTC)

Talk about a delay of exactly one year in replying... I just now caught this comment. One of the principles of the VHS development matrix is that tapes must be interchangeable between players. One company can't go about creating its own mode. VP is limited to a very few number of Panasonic units, and no other manufacturer can successfully play tapes recorded in this mode. The matrix prevents partners from creating their own proprietary things, and if they do so it isn't part of the VHS standard. I wouldn't go as far as saying JVC owns the standard, but there is an agreement between the partners to share advancements in VHS, so that they all can take advantage of the advancements, and therefore stick with the interchangeable idea. And in this case, Panasonic didn't. In short, VP doesn't belong here. Groink (talk) 00:47, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

I've noticed some inconsistencies in the text, regarding usage and decline.

Under "Decline", following text can be found hard-drive based digital video recorders have replaced the VCR as the time shifting device of choice, especially in households with subscriber-based TV services. The home camcorder market, one which VHS shared with alternative formats, has already transitioned to digital-video recording. The home camcorder market, one which VHS shared with alternative formats, has already transitioned to digital-video recording. But the largest impact on the VHS format was the introduction of the DVD format to American consumers in March 1997., but under "Successors - DVD", following can be found: Despite DVD's better quality (480 typical versus 250 lines horizontal resolution), VHS is still (as of 2012) used in home recording of video content. I assume here thought that "home recording" is either time shifting or camcorder recording (it's unclear to me which is it), but I can be wrong. _→AzaToth 14:20, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

I think the cause of the confusion with the section has to do with jamming unrelated sentences into the same paragraph. In this case, I think the reader was trying to correlate time shifting with camcorder recordings, which I think was because the two were in the same paragraph. Maybe the editor actually use camcorders as time shifting devices, which you can actually do but it isn't a commonplace. Nevertheless, I broke the paragraph into two, and placed the camcorder into its own paragraph. I also see a problem with DVD sounding like it replaced VHS, when in fact it hasn't. Replacement would be something more along the lines of, for example, computers replacing manual typewriters. DVD has taken a chunk out of VHS' market share, but VHS continues to exist in the home, which is what the "VHS is still used in home recording" statement points out. By removing the "replace" statement, I think it better defines VHS' existence in the home today. Does this clear up the confusion/unclear issue? Groink (talk) 23:37, 21 February 2013 (UTC)