Talk:Van Mildert College, Durham

Request for Comment

This page has been listed on Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment. A brief, neutral summary follows:

• Some of information in the article is parochial and concern has been expressed about how relevant this is in the encylopaedia.
• An advocate of keeping the text states that the decision should, perhaps, be left to those who know the institution, and believes that as long as the core facts are in the article, there is no harm in having other, more "light-hearted" text.

Tompagenet 12:54, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Notability

This article is expanding at a great rate, which is good; but contributors probably need to consider which content is appropriate for an encyclopedia. I think large parts of the sections "'Mildert' Traditions", "Mildert Galaxy Football Club" and "Van Mildert Bus Society (VMBS)" are probably things that most Wikipedians would not consider sufficiently notable for inclusion in a general-interest encyclopedia. This is just a friendly alert, really - because I know a lot of editors would just come in and delete all three sections, so if you don't want this to happen the article needs editing and cutting down to only include what is really notable about Mildert. TSP 12:55, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Can I suggest some external input into this article is sought through Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment - clearly we (TSP and myself, and the anonymous IP user) have different opinions, which is fine, but it might help for us to reach a consensus about what should remain in this article - what is encylopaedic. Tompagenet 9 July 2005 12:23 (UTC)

Okay - I've put it on Wikipedia:Requests_for_comment Tompagenet 12:50, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

As a Mildert alumnus (1997-2001), son of a Mildert alumnus, nephew of another Mildert alumnus, and current Durham postgraduate student (albeit techinally a member of a different college - Ustinov), I've never heard of the 'Kazoo' ritual, let alone witnessed it. It seems it was probably something only 5 people were involved in, and is of no encyclopaedic value whatsoever. I actually think that such silliness, if it did occur, is in marked contrast to my experience of the Mildert spirit - which was mainly about avoiding acting like a public schoolboy and inventing stupid traditions, (unlike several other Durham colleges, Hatfield springs to mind) and a lot about acting as a normal human being! Spute 23:03, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

To play devil's advocate for a moment, the Kazoo does appear in the JCR Constitution, which claims it's been there at least 4 years. TSP 08:27, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Ok , so maybe it did happen, and it was a sort of JCR committee in joke i missed out on, but it's hardly worth an encyclopedia entry!! 12:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

The Kazoo is a well-known Mildert tradition that certainly involves more than five people. I should know - I've done a Kazoo and witnessed probably about twenty others over the last two years. My Kazoo was relatively poorly attended (with only a few dozen people there) compared to others held after formals or bops in which the entire foyer area is filled with people. I'd be happy to add photographic evidence to Wikipedia to demonstrate the popularity of the Kazoo.--RPC 17:57, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

I can confirm that I saw the Kazoo performed many, many times during my time at Mildert (1997-2000), and the reasons for it were described to me in essentially the same (but vaguer) terms as the article. It is a, frankly, surreal tradition, and if for no other reason than that I would keep it in. MrTrev 00:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

Re: Mildebeast - I presume this is a reference to the fact that in Oxford they call members of St Hilda's college 'Hildebeests', (further propogating Durham's reputation as a place full of Oxbridge rejects/wannabes). I fail to see how a nickname for a couple of (possibly deceased) fish can be considered worthy of an encyclopedia! Should be removed, can there be any argument? Spute 23:19, 26 July 2005 (UTC)

I find it unlikely that the majority of Mildert students are aware of the Oxford term (I'd never heard it) - surely it's far more likely that both are independent inventions from the common word "wildebeest"?

I must confess that I have heard of the Mildebeast, having gone to Durham but not Mildert (unlike the 'Kazoo', 'Mildert Galaxy', 'Van Mildert Bus Society', Mildert bops, and Mildert's "reputation for student participation and liberalism", all of which had escaped my attention until I read this article); it seems a fairly commonly-recounted legend. It might be worth a brief mention as a legend - perhaps half a sentence in a slightly expanded section about the lake? TSP 08:04, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

Well there's enough Durham students with friends, siblings who made it into Oxford rather than being rejected (!), i'm sure that's a likely origin of the term.

The usages don't seem to be very similar... if they were linked, what would be to say that the Durham usage didn't kick off the Oxford one? Personally I'd say that these seem like entirely independent inventions of not-very-complicated wordplay (just as a google for 'Hildebeest' will show that many different people have independently invented the term to apply to many different people and groups - the most common use actually seems to be to refer to Hillary Clinton). TSP 13:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I agree with you though, a brief mention 'the lake is home to many ducks and a few fish, sometimes referred to by students as Mildebeests' would be more than enough. It's hardly a tradition, is it? Spute 12:25, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

I think the legend of the milderbeast/mildebeest is a more diffuse one - it's not related to the fish so much as to the general idea that something horrid lurks in the depths of the lake; but yes, something along those lines. TSP 13:23, 27 July 2005 (UTC)

The tradition is, as you have said, that something terrible lurks in the lake. I heard many different stories about vile items or creatures in the lake when at Mildert, including from college staff and tutors. I think it is worthwhile keeping a mention in, mainly as the lake is a focal point of the college, and the rumours about it are often taken as a source of pride - in my time it was the suggestion the Biology department used it as an example of bacteria surviving in extreme and harsh environments. MrTrev 00:54, 4 February 2006 (UTC)

I went there in 1990-1993 and have absolutely no recollection of ever hearing about a Mildebeest. The ducks were always very randy, and paddling across the lake in a blowup dingy was fun (if smelly), but no Mildebeest as far as I was concerned. Larkim (talk) 15:45, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

On a more general note, it's true there are a few sections of this article that aren't worthy of being in the encyclopedia. However, the edits that have been made by people who have only a passing connection to Van Mildert College (ie they have been University of Durham students in the past) have largely been way off the mark in terms of what is and isn't notable. TSP demonstrates that different things are notable to different people in his observation that the Mildebeast is the only one of the traditions that he was aware of. For me, it was the only one which I had not heard of prior to reading the Wikipedia article. I suppose in that sense the article is pretty good, since it's taught me something I did not previously know. Perhaps those who haven't heard of other traditions should read the article and learn about them, rather than claiming that they don't exist or aren't relevant.--RPC 17:58, 29 July 2005 (UTC)

Notability

I can't really see what's wrong with most of it. As long as the traditional encyclopaedic stuff (history etc.) is included, I don't see the problem with also providing more light-hearted information that will be of interest to anybody connected to the college, past, present or future.

Oh, I don't have a problem with light-heartedness. But Wikipedia is explicitly not written for people connected with the college - Mildert and Mildert JCR both have web pages for the benefit of people connected with the college. Wikipedia should include the things about Mildert that an international audience would consider to be of interest. Pretty much everything in the first section of the page, for example, is the sort of thing people in general might seek to find out about the college from an encyclopedia; whereas a vague tendency of members of the college to drink a particular not-very-unusual alcoholic drink (not actually something I'd noticed any of the times I've been there) probably isn't something most people outside the college would find interesting.

I think, perhaps, the decision as to what's relevant for an encyclopedia page about Van Mildert College should be left to those of us with a knowledge of the institution.

But the people who are closest to the subject are not necessarily those who have the best idea of what is notable about it (Wikipedia guidelines say: "In order to prevent prolonged disputes about the significance, factual accuracy, and neutrality of material on subjects in which you are personally involved, it is often a good idea to wait until others lay the groundwork before creating or heavily expanding such articles."). The current section on bops is an example: I'm sure Mildert bops are a particularly significant part of college life to those who live there. On the other hand, all Durham colleges (and colleges and halls at other universities) have bops on not-dissimilar lines, so the fact that Mildert has bops isn't a particularly notable thing about Mildert to an outsider; deserving of a sentence, perhaps. Ultimately no Wikipedia page belongs to anyone - the decision on what belongs here is in the hands of the community. Please do keep adding, but pages need to be assessed by people with some distance from the subject, not just by those with a close affiliation to it, so don't be too surprised if someone comes in and significantly edits these sections. TSP 02:10, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

Involvement

Do we have any evidence to suggest that the statement "the level of student involvement in the running of the college is quite probably higher than any other Doxbridge college." is true - I've never been struck by Van Mildert as being anything particularly unusual in terms of student involvement, but has it been widely said in the past, or do Student Experience Surveys suggest that it's true? Tompagenet 20:19, 26 Jun 2005 (UTC)

According to the latest Who's Who, there are around 270 positions (not including another 30 positions occupied by members of Team Bar) currently occupied in Van Mildert JCR, which is a bloody high percentage of the 1080 JCR members living in and out of Mildert, even when you consider that some members hold more than one position. The attendance of Mildert's (entirely voluntary) JCR meetings, usually well over 10% of the JCR, is certainly higher than many comparable colleges, some of whom have compulsory meetings.

Clearly, someone coming from a DSU perspective is unlikely to see this level of involvement due to the simple fact that the strength of Mildert's JCR means that very few JCR members are actively involved in DSU.

I think when I was at Chad's JCR meeting attendance (which is voluntary) was around 50%... not to deride Mildert's turnout - involvement is trickier to acheive in a larger college - but we do need something to justify a statement like that if it's going to remain in an encyclopedia.

Yes, it is hard to assess levels of involvement from outside the college; but that's also the reason why it's not justified to put in a statement like that just because people within the college think involvement levels are high; people within the college will not be able to objectively compare it to other colleges.

Incidentally, Mildert is actually currently one of the more involved colleges in DSU, holding 8.5 officer positions (putting it third after Hild Bede and Cuths). TSP 28 June 2005 10:07 (UTC)

Fan-Cruft Material

As has been discussed above, much of the material on this page is simply unencyclopedic. Unless. I have removed the majority of the 'Mildert Traditions' and societies, and think it should be up to contributors to provide verfiable sources and justification for any reintroductions. The other college pages do not include them as they violate Wikipedia:Verifiability and Wikipedia:Vanity. I am happy to accept that items such as the bands who have played at the summer ball and maybe even the darned kazoo could make an appearance, but am not really convinced Robdurbar 10:14, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Everything on that page that you have just deleted (and I have just put back), with the obvious exception of the Mildebeast which is an urban legend of interest to people researching the college, is verifiable fact.--RPC 12:03, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

I disagree. The college b team and the mildert galaxy football club and who is in it is not notable for an encyclopedia. The baot club is no of no real notablity. The bog sheet is a tradition in every bleeding college and is barely of note; ditto Midlert day and bops.

'A Durham University tradition, which has been taken particularly to heart by Van Mildert College' - this is a blatent POV sentence with no evidence to back it up. The Kazoo ceremony may just be worth a mention, but the style it is written in is very un-encyclopedic.

If this stuff is verifably notable you should provide some sources. Robdurbar 12:53, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Well I've removed a lot of stuff from here, but kept a few bits that might be seen as being notably different from any other durham, oxford, cambridge, york, lancaster etc. college. Personally, I think most of the other stuff under 'Mildert Traditions' could go too but I don't want to enter into an edit war. Robdurbar 15:21, 11 December 2005 (UTC)

Principal/Master

Ick. When did Mildert change from having a Principal to having a Master? MrTrev 12:10, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

A couple of weeks ago. RPC 21:05, 16 March 2006 (UTC)

Removed dead link

• Van Mildert College SCR staff organisation Open2universe 13:34, 12 July 2006 (UTC)

The Mildebeast

I have removed this section since it is unsourced and fails WP:V. Even as a student tradition both sourcing and verifiability is needed. A sourced quote from a local paper /might/ suffice. As it stands it has no place in an encyclopaedis. BlueValour 15:16, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

I have returned this section as it is appropriate here. This [1] shows that students at the college still refer to the Mildebeast - another thread refers to a photo of a pike taken when the lake was dredged as part of its refurbishment.

Student traditions are by their very nature apocryphal, yet well known amongst the current crop of students. Certainly I can remember dead tree sources referring to the Mildebeast, but as is the nature with student rags, they are long gone. And a local paper is going to be profoundly uninterested in one tradition amongst many from one college amongst many in one town amongst many that it covers. MrTrev 23:57, 30 August 2006 (UTC)

Please read WP:V and WP:CITE. Even 'legends' must be independently sourced. Please do not continue to insert content that fails these guidelines since this type of unsourced stories brings Wikipedia into disrepure. Please note that WP:V is policy and says "Information on Wikipedia must be reliable and verifiable. Facts, viewpoints, theories, and arguments may only be included in articles if they have already been published by reliable and reputable sources. Articles should cite these sources whenever possible. Any unsourced material may be challenged and removed." BlueValour 01:47, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

If sutdent traditions are by their nature aprochyphal, that's exactly why encyclopedia do not discuss them. Perhaps if you could find an old copy of Palatinate that metions it? --Robdurbar 10:21, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Going Co-educational

According to the history page of New College (and my own recollection), Neville's Cross went co-educational as early as 1963. Here's the link: http://www.newcollegedurham.ac.uk/common/school/about/aboutncd/Pages/History.aspx. Though Neville's was primarily a teacher-training college it did admit people to read for undergraduate and postgraduate courses as well. Everyone has forgotten about Neville's because it ceased to exist when it merged with Durham Tech to become New College, but it was co-educational before Van Mildert was. Perhaps a Mildertian might make the change?Kranf (talk) 22:36, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Notable Alumni Sources

I'm beginning the project of seeking sources for the notable alumni. Any I can't find sources for in the next week I intend to delete. I am also unsure of the notability of some of the alumni in the list.

The list as it currently stands is;

   George Alagiah [sourced]
   Ven. Stuart Bain [sourced]
   John D. Barrow [sourced]
   Jonathan Edwards [UNsourced]
   Jesse Honey [UNsourced]
   Anthony Hughes [sourced]
   Anthony Johnstone-Burt [UNsourced]
   Frank Kelly [sourced]
   John Douglas Maitland [sourced]
   Baroness Morgan of Huyton [UNsourced]
   David Walton [UNsourced]
   Rev. Martin Wharton [UNsourced]
   John B. Williams [UNsourced]

Please help find these sources SPACKlick (talk) 14:29, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

Update from a first search

Jonathan Edwards - Which source is preferred?

https://www.dur.ac.uk/resources/ceremonies/congregation/edwards_jonathan.pdf.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/universityeducation/8874118/Sports-stars-with-degrees.html?image=8

Jesse Honey – Jesse was definitely there when I was, think he started in 1995 and finished 1999. Post Blockbusters, pre-Mastermind, vis-a-vis University Challenge.

Anthony Johnstone-Burt – Can find only one source looks like a wiki copy

http://newwestminstercollege.ca/vice-admiral-tony-johnstone-burt/

Baroness Morgan of Huyton – Cannot verify

David Walton – Obituary found

https://www.dur.ac.uk/van-mildert.association/news/obituaries/

Rev. Martin Wharton – not sure which source to use

http://www.churchofengland.org/our-views/the-church-in-parliament/bishops-in-the-house-of-lords/bishop-of-newcastle.aspx

https://www.dur.ac.uk/van-mildert.college/about/news/?itemno=11302

John B. Williams - Could not verify - well I can. He used to collect cheques for remixes in the pigeon holes next to Reception.

Ok, so a first scan leaves me in no doubts about notability but four candidates for deletion due to lack of sources. I'll add sources for those as I've found them. SPACKlick (talk) 14:49, 22 January 2014 (UTC)

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