Talk:Vanilla slice

Proposed merge of Mille-feuille with Vanilla slice

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

No consensus to merge with discussion stale for a year; support for the status quo; no consensus on alternative proposal. Klbrain (talk) 09:25, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

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Vanilla custard slice is just the English name for Mille-feuille. I'm not sure which way the merge should go but we shouldn't have two articles for the same dessert. Spudlace (talk) 15:56, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

I don't know the situation in the UK, but in Australia and New Zealand they come across as different desserts, and have a particular cultural significance. I think we need a picture to show the difference - I'll try and take one today. - Bilby (talk) 20:30, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

Cultural imperialism is a bad look, instead of merging them why not create an introduction to them as an identifiable family of similar dishes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.151.179.92 (talk) 07:24, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

MERGE. Vanilla/custard slice seems to be a specifically AUS/NZ name and unknown in the US, but mille-feuille is used worldwide. So it seems they it should merge into Mille-feuille. Local variants of dishes can easily be covered in the merged article. --Macrakis (talk) 22:17, 19 January 2021 (UTC)

In New Zealand, if you go to a patisserie, you can buy a Mille Feuille. At a non-French bakery, you can buy a vanilla slice or custard slice. They are not the same thing. The vanilla/custard slice has pastry only on the top and bottom only, never in the middle. The filling of a Mille Feuille is softer, whereas the vanilla slice can be quite gelatinous. Any French person eating a New Zealand vanilla slice would never describe it as a Mille Feuille. In fact, they are likely to be disappointed. 151.210.238.236 (talk) 02:02, 23 March 2022 (UTC)

Mille-feuille has several thin layers but vanilla/custard slice has one thick custard layer sandwiched between two pastry sheets. On the other hand, the other variations listed at mille-feuille are even more divergent. Do we benefit by having such a long list of variations by country? Seems like a grab bag of things having one or several layers, and filled with custard, or cream, or jam, or almond, or... I think it would be more informative for the reader to group variations by type not country (single-layer, multi-layer, custard-filled, cream-filled, etc.) – but that would be a separate battle.

Serbian krempita is listed at both mille-feuille and at cremeschnitte articles. Belgian tompouce has a stand-alone article. Vanilla slice article is shorter than tompouce, but has more ref's.

Note that in the reference by food critic Matt Preston, he deliberately contrasts the two for humorous effect: "Likened to a delicate, French mille-feuille, but with a custard so bouncy you might think it was made in a tyre factory". I get the impression that in Australia both names are in use and denote different things. Public perception of mille-feuille as a different entity could be a recent development fuelled by cooking shows such as Masterchef and MKR, where contestants sometimes layer fresh fruit with the creme-pat.

I was inclined to say no-merge due to cultural significance. Though the Serbs probably think their cream pies are distinctive and also deserving of a separate article.

— Pelagic ( messages ) – (23:04 Sun 14, AEDT) 12:04, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Per Pelagic, if you want to buy a Mille-feuille, that's what you buy (although sometimes they are referred to as a Continental or Napoleon). A vanilla slice might be compared to a mille-feuille, but it isn't regarded here as the same thing, hence the description of being "uniquely Australian". [1] - Bilby (talk) 12:59, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

It's considered a trivial variation, even by Australians. See this Australian source [2]): "It was only when I got older and witnessed international pastry baking goodness that I understood how the Aussie vanilla slice – affectionately referred to as the 'snot block’ – was actually an interpretation of a desert that was much mightier. Enter, France’s delicately crafted and oh so elegant mille-feuille: the mother of all vanilla slices." Spudlace (talk) 17:44, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

I think we can throw sources saying both things. There are plenty of sources claiming it as uniquely Australian - I'm sure we can dig up more sources saying that it is a variation of a Mille-feuille. But that's part of why I think it is better handled in an article which can cover different perspectives. We can argue if it is a variation or uniquely Australian, but it isn't just another term for Mille-feuille. - Bilby (talk) 18:02, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

It creates a problem of consistency for us.

If we restrict mille-feuille only to desserts that have this traditional appearance:

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Then what do we do with these?:

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We have separate articles for some of them:

• Milhoja
• Cremeschnitte
• Napoleonka

Do we then split out Napoleon? (It doesn't help matters that there is a cake called Napoleon in Australia that is an unrelated sponge cake with pink icing.) Spudlace (talk) 18:26, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

If there are enough sources discussing them, I don't see why we don't spin out a atand alone article but mention them in the main. Same as we treat New York-style pizza separate to Neapolitan pizza, Chicago-style pizza, Detroit-style pizza and pizza both as separate articles and as variations. - Bilby (talk) 18:33, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

• Merge Two things do not need to be identical to be covered in the same article. These two are clearly very closely related, and should be covered together. --Macrakis (talk) 18:38, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

A fortiori for Cremeschnitte etc., which are just local names for the same thing. --Macrakis (talk) 18:39, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

Of course, the history and cultural significance of all the variants should be discussed in the merged article. --Macrakis (talk) 17:32, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

Vanilla Custard Slice is from a different country, and a different time period. Is neatly organizing dishes by type more important than maintaining their history? My OCD opposes merging these. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.249.122.36 (talk) 21:13, 14 February 2021 (UTC)

No, it's not. Separate articles are always preferred when they are well-sourced and contain additional details that would crowd the main article, but in practice, we usually end up with at least six or seven poorly sourced stub articles that are trivial or redundant. Milhoja, for example, is a literal Spanish translation of Mille-feuille ('thousand sheets'). But it's appearance is closer to the custard slice. There's a question of whether Napoleon should be split from this article as well. Spudlace (talk) 19:43, 15 February 2021 (UTC)

It's a little weird that Mille-feuille mentions Austria and Hungary (where it seems the form was invented) but Cremeschnitte, ostensibly devoted to the original cake from the Austro-Hungarian empire, mentions neither Austria nor Hungary. - Themightyquill (talk) 07:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Horrendous names

I've never encountered anyone who uses the derogatory terms for vanilla slice that I've come across. This only published reference seems particularly weak, originating from a single article in "The Conversation" published in 2024. If these were common colloquialisms it's unlikely that people would enjoy consuming something associated with such offensive names.

The link to the Macquarie Dictionary directs to a blog which only mentions vague and unauthenticated slang originating from the Latrobe Valley in the 1950s, dating back 70 years, as well as personal stories from people's relatives and friends. Such references do not constitute sufficient evidence to validate the common use of these expressions. 123.208.224.206 (talk) 10:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

The Conversation is a well regarded source of information written by journalists and academics (https://theconversation.com/au/who-we-are). Author details and credentials are displayed on article pages on the top right, in this case it is written by a professor in History at the University of Newcastle (https://theconversation.com/profiles/garritt-c-van-dyk-1014186).

Although unusual, the crude naming is well substantiated and is supported across multiple sources. See below:

• https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-12-25/aussie-vanilla-slice-delicate-european-dessert-snot-block-bakery/103255450
• https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/jan/21/bum-nuts-and-chickens-in-pyjamas-the-words-australians-use-for-food
• https://www.news.com.au/lifestyle/food/eat/vanilla-slice-or-snot-block-aussies-debate-treat-name/news-story/49bb3c6f3490dc61c0b953e8a3cc20b1
• https://www.nzherald.co.nz/lifestyle/custard-square-vanilla-slice-or-snot-block-australia-ruins-tasty-treat-with-name/QSQPMNKLG4P63TYBVCYJ3QP6CY/
• https://www.vice.com/en/article/dp9xgw/vanilla-slice-road-trip

The link to the Macquarie Dictionary was weak and has been removed. Mr IKEA Shark (talk) 19:06, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Although you may have never heard anyone use the derogatory terms for the vanilla slice, I have heard it many times across many suburbs across Sydney. I have often asked bakeries if they get call snot block for example. Most have laughed and said yes. 122.106.51.147 (talk) 23:55, 22 August 2024 (UTC)