Talk:Varieties of Arabic

RfC on map of varieties

Should we keep the new map on this article? A455bcd9 (talk) 11:20, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Survey

• Agree A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

  I'm not sure this needs an RfC unless there is someone opposing the new map. Anyway I see no reason not to use Ethnologue data, it's probably better than a lot of what you can find out there. (t · c) buidhe 17:47, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

  @Buidhe, there's some strong opposition from some users, see for instance: here, there, or Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Arabic Varieties Map. A455bcd9 (talk) 17:50, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

  Well I support if this is the best map available in your opinion. (t · c) buidhe 18:08, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

  I do think it is the best map available. A455bcd9 (talk) 18:33, 25 November 2022 (UTC)

• Agree Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 20:02, 26 November 2022 (UTC)
• Agree The map looks good; it is properly sourced; and it is useful and informative for the article. --Guest2625 (talk) 10:08, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
• Agree. Fad Ariff (talk) 13:05, 9 December 2022 (UTC)
• Yes, but let's mention the source (Ethnologue). Some issues have been raised concerning the accuracy of the map however I think that the value that the map provides to the reader outweighs these concerns. Alaexis_¿question? 12:43, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

  Hi @Alaexis: what do you mean by "let's mention the source"? The sources are already all mentioned on File:Arabic Varieties Map.svg. And although Ethnologue is the main source, five other sources were used. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:04, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

  Ah, sorry, I didn't look past the first item in the list. It does seem like the main source, just counting the countries, so maybe we can write "per Ethnologue and other sources." We can also add these sources as references here to make them more visible. Alaexis_¿question? 13:17, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

  Done @Alaexis. a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 13:23, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Threaded discussion

@A455bcd9: RfC statements are supposed to be brief and neutral. Can you please move everything that you added before the question to the discussion section or your own !vote? Thanks. M.Bitton (talk) 16:12, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@M.Bitton: Hi, sorry for that, I've only done a few RfCs in the past. I fixed the problem, thanks for the feedback. Cheers, A455bcd9 (talk) 16:19, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

It's still not quite right. If you're going to do a survey + discussion format, the survey section should just say "agree" and your arguments should go in the discussion section, so people can extend or rebut them in context. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 17:35, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

@Giraffedata: sorry again... M.Bitton adopted this format. I moved my comment below, is that fine? A455bcd9 (talk) 18:13, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

a455bcd9's opinion

• The community reached a consensus in August and September 2022 and decided to to remove the previous map because it was WP:OR, unsourced, inaccurate, and erroneous. The new map, requested in the Map workshop, follows Ethnologue's maps. Ethnologue is considered a reliable source in linguistics per Ethnologue#Reception,_reliability,_and_use and Wikipedia:WikiProject Languages#Interpreting online sources of data. This map also follows the guidelines of Wikipedia:Using maps and similar sources in Wikipedia articles. A455bcd9 (talk) 16:24, 23 November 2022 (UTC)

Imperfect map is better than no map

Between data from a reliable source (and Ethnologue does appear to be accepted as that in Wikipedia) and data from original research / no source, I'll go with the former.

When the reliable source is wrong, that's a sticky situation, but there's nothing we can do about that; an encyclopedia isn't an authority on the facts; it just summarizes other sources. If there is no reliable source contradicting Ethnologue, we have to report the Ethnologue facts. To me, it's like when a judge has to assume Congress meant what is written in the law even though the judge knows lawmakers intended something else. Bryan Henderson (giraffedata) (talk) 20:02, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Should Maltese be included in the map?

I know it's descended from an Arabic dialect but it's usually considered to be its own language and not a dialect of Arabic like Darija and such. Nubi, also, should it be included despite being a creole? On other language maps of Wikipedia like the one for Spanish of French, the creoles aren't included.

201.175.234.27 (talk) 23:10, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Hi,

It's an excellent question. I think Maltese should be included because:

1. This is a map of "varieties of Arabic". Not a map of "Arabic dialects" per se but of languages, dialects, and varieties of the "Arabic family". So as you said, Maltese is definitely one of them. It is confirmed by Ethnologue and Glottolog
2. One of the sources used is "Figure 32.1 Map showing the Arabic‐speaking regions and the status of Arabic in the various countries (courtesy of Peter Behnstedt)." in Al‐Wer, Enam; Jong, Rudolf (2017). "Dialects of Arabic". In Boberg, Charles; Nerbonne, John; Watt, Dominic (eds.). The Handbook of Dialectology. Wiley. pp. 523–534. doi:10.1002/9781118827628.ch32. ISBN 978-1-118-82755-0. OCLC 989950951. => this map (and the rest of the article) shows Maltese and Nubi as part of the Arabic varieties.
3. Versteegh 2014, The Arabic language says pp. 189-190 (bold mine): Chapter 15 will be devoted to the dialects of the various language islands of Arabic, that is, varieties of Arabic that are spoken outside the Arabophone world in linguistic enclaves in an environment in which other languages predominate. Examples of such language islands are Maltese Arabic, Cypriot Maronite Arabic, the Arabic of Uzbekistan and Afghanistan, the Arabic dialects of central Anatolia, Nigerian Shuwa Arabic, and the creolised Arabic of Uganda and Kenya (Ki-Nubi), the latter to be dealt with in Chapter 16. The dialects spoken in the linguistic enclaves groups: ultimately derive from dialect groups in the central areas, Cypriot Maronite Arabic being a Syro-Lebanese type of dialect, Maltese being a North African type of dialect, and so on. But their isolation from the Arabophone world and their lack of exposure to the Classical language have contributed to the preservation of features that were lost elsewhere.

Best, a455bcd9 (Antoine) (talk) 08:48, 20 December 2022 (UTC)