Talk:Vatnik

Definition

@Trydence: "Please verify to AS" - what does this mean?

The author of the term specifically writes "Я решил нарисовать персонажа, который воплотил бы в себе все отрицательные качества типичного россиянина." All sources speak to the same. What is your reference that the term became more generic?-M.Altenmann >t 02:43, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

"Я решил нарисовать персонажа, который воплотил бы в себе все отрицательные качества типичного россиянина." - it is about uprise of the term, about idea of meme from author. Do you need correct translation of this sentence? Vatniks called any person with Russian / pro-Russian (imperial, sovok etc) mentality, regardless of nationality or ethnic origin. in sourses:

• "Ватниками" проукраїнськи налаштовані жителі півострова називають тих земляків, у яких досі не минає ейфорія з приводу російської окупації. [1]
• интернет-мем, которым русских патриотов и патриотов России обозначают их противники. (...Russian patriots and patriots of Russia...) (can't add link)
• термин, который представители креативного класса ввели в 2011 году для обозначения патриотов России (...for identification patriots of Russia) (can't add link)

Yes, term have direct relation to Russians, but vatnik can be not only a Russian. Russian/Soviet identity - maybe.--Trydence (talk) 10:31, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

More sourses:

• людина з (пост) радянською ментальністю, яка щиро не розуміє, для чого існує держава Україна. [2]
• Можна сказати, що ватник – це совок з активною громадянською позицією [3]

--Trydence (talk) 10:36, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

The term is used mainly by Polish, Baltic and Ukrainian Nationalists for Critics of anti-Russian policy.--88.66.130.110 (talk) 08:37, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

Not an ethnic slur

Vatnik is not an ethnic slur. Vatnik is a social diagnosis of a member of any society who has trouble to distinguish propaganda and possesses a selective hearing as having cotton balls (vata) in his or her ears. Aleksandr Grigoryev (talk) 04:09, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

+1 It's a political slur, not ethnical. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.91.255.129 (talk) 21:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

A funny and ironical fact is that the People who use this slur often are followers of distinguish Propaganda of the governments of their own countries or those of US government. There are for example Polish Nationalists who admire Pilsudski and dreaming about the realization of his Project called Intermarium, Balts who admire Baltic SS Volunteers as Freedom Fighters, Ukrainians who vote for Right Sector or American Exceptionalists who use that slur and have exactly that mental state which this lame meme describes.--Konfuziusfreund (talk) 15:35, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Cry me a river, ruski. You don't have any evidence backing this claim. 95.155.114.3 (talk) 17:26, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

There is no need to use ethnic slurs against people here, it is a place of civil discussion, take your nationalism elsewhere. Luroe (talk) 17:03, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

Not relevant to this discussion. Go on English-speaking social media. People use the term "vatnik" for extremely non-Russian people like Caitlin Johnstone, Michael Tracey, Scott Ritter, etc. with great regularity.

Because it is a pejorative which is used against non-Russians with extreme frequency, it cannot be considered an ethnic slur in actual use. It's not like "katsap," which is a pejorative used exclusively against Russians, and so therefore is an ethnic slur against Russians. 2603:7080:C33A:B22A:ED40:5336:D51B:5A80 (talk) 17:11, 28 December 2022 (UTC)

I do not see any positive shade of meaning of subject of article

Try to so called someone any the russian, and then prove that you made it from good intentions, positively, to express support - most likely, you will not have time to escape. In general, there is no talk of any neutral point of view in the article, the article is biased into opposition to the russians.

The official story about the origin of that term sounds very unlikely. Pussy Riot members were punished not very hard for copulating in a public building in front of children so why should the creator of that meme (that is ironically used by jingoistic followers of Propaganda of the governments of Poland, Baltic States, Ukraine or US) fleed from Russia to Ukraine? The meme is probably a part of the Propaganda of the Liberal Opposition in Russia against the Russian government.--Konfuziusfreund (talk) 15:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

"Ethnic slur"

I've only ever seen Vatnik used to refer to excessive pro russian or eastern bloc bias in discussions. Anyone of any ethnicity can be a vatnik, as it's a state of mind. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:18C:C901:A563:5C46:7D7A:6AB0:D02C (talk) 01:27, 11 June 2019 (UTC)

There is no Eastern Bloc anymore but there is a Western Bloc called NATO which was expanded since the end of Cold war. According to my personal experience the slur is used by Nationalist Ukrainians, Poles and Balts or also by Americans who consume the Mainstream Media who call everyone a Vatnik who critizes the biased Coverage on Russia.--Konfuziusfreund (talk) 13:27, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

From my personal experience, it was used mostly by Russians (e.g. bloggers) that oppose Putin. Underfell Flowey (talk) 05:54, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

For all intents and purposes the term Vatnik is almost identical in meaning and tone to the term Tankie. The term first originated and gained popularity in Russia itself to refer to pro-Kremlin and pro-Soviet people. Other similar characters for Ukraine and for Belarus have also been created but stayed obscure. After Euromaidan an opposite term emerged in Ukraine - Vyshyvatnik, a portmanteu of vyshyvanka and vatnik to describe a jingoist Ukrainian nationalist who went too far. Notably this term emerged in pro-Ukrainian community and is rarely used by the Russians. --VileGecko (talk) 18:57, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Political slur

Political slur is not a thing in English. Closest I could think of is Snowflake (slang) which is described as a derogatory term. I think that's close, but derisive might be better. I'm going to add that. LMK here if you have a better idea. Rendall (talk) 10:20, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

They do exist within english "Tankie", "Pinko", "Commie", "Wumao" and "SJW" to name a few, they exist, it's just that you exist within the realm of acceptable politics of your national politique and thus do not hear them. Sussis Amogus (talk) 02:26, 27 June 2023 (UTC)

Maybe just pejorative Rendall (talk) 10:23, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

The articles sourced as "evidence" for the term being pejorative do not even mention the word "vatnik" let alone definitively define it as a pejorative.

This article has gone through significant revisions in the last few days/weeks, and it is clear that there is an effort (potentially from Russia, or Russian sympathizers) to redefine the term as something worse than it really is so what it can be used against people elsewhere e.g. proving a Twitter violation or ban. Given current events, and Russians known use of disinformation campaigns such as this, I would argue that the article should be locked in either its previous state, or at least without the questionable sources that do not speak to the definition as a pejorative. 2600:8800:200:5DE:11A5:35FB:9E8D:551A (talk) 02:20, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Ok. But you reverted my change of "slur" to "pejorative" (more neutral in my opinion) back to "slur" which is not neutral, and "political slur" is not a phrase used in English, and that reversion didn't even address your concerns. So, please explain your reversion. Rendall (talk) 06:52, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

I've explained my revision, do you have anything to say for blindly accepting sources that are irrelevant? 2600:8800:200:5DE:7CE1:525F:A3B6:6034 (talk) 20:44, 21 August 2022 (UTC)

It appears that you have been warned multiple times to stop reverting changes on this page. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:2600:8800:200:5DE:11A5:35FB:9E8D:551A Rendall (talk) 06:58, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

Indeed I have, because it is wrong. Neither word is neutral, if anything the words "slur" and "pejorative" are essentially equivalent. Whether the phrase "political slur" is commonly used is irrelevant, since the description is accurate. My reversion is due to the fact that the sources provided do not speak to the word being a pejorative. In fact the sources do not even refer to the word "vatnik" at anywhere in their text. At this point though, I couldn't care less about the wording but the sources can, and should, be removed as they are irrelevant to the topic and definition. 2600:8800:200:5DE:5492:4206:F5AD:895C (talk) 20:07, 19 August 2022 (UTC)

> My reversion is due to the fact that the sources provided do not speak to the word being a pejorative.

Ok.

1. I didn't address the sources at all. I was reacting specifically to the use of the term political slur. As I describe below, it is not a term that easily makes sense.

2. Your reversion of my change didn't even address that which you yourself claim to upset you.

• You apparently want more evidence that vatnik is used negatively? So then you revert *pejorative* back to *slur*? Makes no sense, even if you believe they are equivalent.

3. Vatnik is used negatively by those opposed to the Russian invasion of Ukraine to describe people who accept and promote propaganda from the Russian government. If you accept that it is used this way, then by definition it is a pejorative. If you must, we can simply cite a dictionary.

• If you want to have a conversation of whether or not vatnik is a pejorative, you should provide sources that it's considered a positive or neutral term. Do you have even one example of vatnik being used positively? Anywhere?

Rendall (talk) 07:09, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Any response to my comments? Have you read the sources? Did you even bother to the most basic checking? 2600:8800:200:5DE:4DD8:7AB2:FE2E:5194 (talk) 19:21, 20 August 2022 (UTC)

As a native speaker of English I can assure you that pejorative and slur are not equivalent. I will read your sources but they will have no bearing on this particular distinction.

Slur has a connotation of unfairness that pejorative does not. All slurs are pejoratives but not all pejoratives are slurs.

Examples:

• The n-word is a slur because there is no use of the term that is not unfair. It doesn't matter what the person believes or how they behave, a slur is meant to apply because of what the person is. It is also a pejorative.
• Reactionary is a negative term - a pejorative - used by revolutionaries (or progressives) to describe those who resist implemented changes. It can be used as a slur only if it's untrue, but unlike a slur, a pejorative can accurately describe someone even if it has a connotation that is negative.

Using a political pejorative to slur someone is the only situation where political slur even makes sense as a term. For example, to call someone who is not a vatnik a vatnik, or to call someone who is not a reactionary a reactionary, could be a political slur.

To call the term vatnik a slur implies an inherent unfairness equivalent to the n-word, but since it can accurately (even if negatively) describe someone's beliefs, it is not inherently a slur.

If you want to argue about the equivalence of the two terms slur and pejorative then dictionaries are the appropriate sources.

Anyway, I'll give your sources a browse now and come back with my thoughts. Rendall (talk) 06:54, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Comments above.

As an aside, arguing for its being a neutral term as you do could be considered a pro-invasion stance. Vatnik is intended to be an insult. It was constructed that way. It is intended to get people to question their sources of knowledge.

If I were pro-invasion or otherwise pro-Putin, I would claim the word and proudly say 'I am a Vatnik, because Russia brings the light of civilization and progress to the benighted neighbors...' or whatever, thereby cutting its evocative power. Rendall (talk) 07:19, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

"Vatnik" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Vatnik has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 August 2 § Vatnik until a consensus is reached. Jay 💬 10:34, 2 August 2023 (UTC)

Requested move 29 October 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved, only opposition was withdrawn (closed by non-admin page mover) BegbertBiggs (talk) 21:47, 5 November 2023 (UTC)

---

Vatnik (slang) → Vatnik – I think by now it's clear this is the more common meaning of "Vatnik" in English. When I search "Vatnik" on Google Books, every single source on the first page is using it in the slang sense.[4] Same goes for Google News [5] When I search on just normal Google [6], literally all the results are sites explaining the meaning of the slang, and they all have to explain what the jacket is to their English-speaking audience. The "jacket" meaning has always been very obscure, because the telogreika is a completely unknown piece of attire in the Anglosphere. The slang is the WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. HappyWith (talk) 19:37, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Also, the pageviews of the slang are four times higher than the clothing item, despite the fact that people searching "Vatnik" are redirected to Telogreika. HappyWith (talk) 19:40, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Oppose per WP:RECENTISM. Well-establishedd primary meaning. We surely don't want to move pages with every surge of some particular usage. Looking at Wikipedia Signpost, top pageviews, I see Jawan (film) in tops. this does not mean we have to move Jawan (film) to Jawan. - Altenmann >talk 20:28, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

It's not a recent surge at all. The articles I'm talking about that show up in Google are almost ten years old, talking about the rise of the term in the context of the war in Donbas. HappyWith (talk) 00:03, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

• support there's no way that an obscure jacket is well established or have long term significance in the anglo-sphere—blindlynx 23:25, 29 October 2023 (UTC)

Support. Even if we don’t agree this is the primary topic, there is no need for disambiguation in the title and it should be removed. (It doesn’t even make sense, as vatnik is a colloquialism or slang name for the jacket as well.) —Michael Z. 13:49, 30 October 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.