Talk:Verismo

Origins of Verismo

I'm not sure that La Gioconda is a verismo opera par excellence, but it was premiered only 4 years before Cavalleria, and was the first important Italian opera to come out since Verdi's Aida. It represents the new age of style - Naturalism in music - in my opinion, and deserves some credit here. AdamChapman 19:55, 9 October 2007 (UTC)

Harold C. Schonberg says in his "The Lives of the Great Composers" about Bizet's "Carmen": "In a way, Carmen started the verismo school. It contained contemporary characters true to life and traced the disintegration of an honorable soldier." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.190.225.121 (talk) 21:14, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

What Is Verismo Opera?

Yes, some people even wish to include Verdi's la Traviata as the first Verismo opera! The vexed question of what Verismo operais will I suspect never be answered. I think the "Other Usage" section here is very well written and although it might include more on the "what is Verismo opera" "debate" I think it an excellent introduction to the Verismo problem (musical style or subject matter? etc.). Well-done who wrote that paragraph. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.243.217.40 (talk) 08:05, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

The article is very confusing. I really do not understand why in the Verismo article it is talked about the opera. Verismo was a literary stream, not musical. Just check the italian wiki.--Desyman44 (talk) 14:41, 2 June 2009 (UTC)

Not in English usage it isn't. Personally I think La traviata should be mentioned here, even if it is not accepted in the Verismo canon - it has more versismo features than many operas than are. Johnbod (talk) 15:58, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Turandot?

I see two difficulties which arise from the description of Turandot in this article. First of all, I do not think that it could be classified as Verismo. It aims to present a story in an unapologetically unrealistic, fairytale-like setting. Although it is certainly undeniable that the music does seek to specifically reflect some aspect of the drama, this does not necessarily indicate that the work itself in in the specific style referred to as verismo; indeed, it would seem that any effective opera in the history of music does so, otherwise, there is no connection between the music and the events onstage. Thus, I am not sure that it is a good idea to have such a mention of the opera in the article.

Finally, even if the sentence about Turandot is not removed, it is rather inappropriate to classify it as a "'number' style" opera. Although it seems to have become common practice to take excerpts from the work, this is not done without modifying the flow of the music. Even the famous "Nessun Dorma" flows directly into the scene afterwards (though, many conductors have recently taken to adopting a much slower tempo through the six continuous fully-orchestrated bars which separate the end of the "aria" andd the vocal entrance of Ping, presumably to encourage applause). Like in most of Puccini's other works, it seems that the musical continuity favored by Wagner is present throughout Turandot.--134.69.37.89 (talk) 01:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

No numbers in Verismo?

The article makes this statement --- The "realistic" approach of Verismo extends to the music: the score of a Verismo opera is for the most part continuous and is not divided into separate "numbers" that can be excised easily and performed in concert excerpts (as is the case with the operatic genres that preceded Verismo). This is not always true, however – Cavalleria rusticana, Pagliacci, Tosca. ---

There are two problems here 1) the statement is not cited, 2) the statement cites the three main operas that everyone agrees are 'verismo' as being exceptions to a rule that characterizes Verismo. The statement is also not true for Andrea Chenier, for Boheme, for Tabarro, is only partly true for Fanciulla. If no-one objects I will remove this and replace with referenced material about the musical style of verismo that is more accurate. David.thompson.esq (talk) 13:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Influence of Wagner?

This portion of the article implies that Wagner was somehow the father of verismo. While it's true that Wagner influenced everyone that came after him, the implication (and I grant the text does some 'on he other hand'-ing) is not really correct. If no-one objects, I would like to remove this section entirely, and replace it with material explaining the origins of verismo. Wagner would have to be recognized for inspiring the lietmotivs in Tosca, and perhaps in Puccini's sophisticated use of the orchestra, but these are really just techniques, and verismo is defined in large part by its 'slice of life' subject matter, which is about as far from Wagner as it is possible to get. David.thompson.esq (talk) 13:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you. Go ahead an rewrite. It couldn't be any worse. :) This article is currently a mess, and misleading, especially the Wagner section (also poorly referenced and in an unecyclopedic style). However, the subject is a minefield. Verismo in opera is often used to describe not only the subject matter but also the style of the vocal music and how it sung. For example, Tosca isn't verismo in the sense of dealing with contemporary lives, usually of the working or peasant classes. However, it uses a style of singing associated with works of this period, regardless of the subject matter. e.g emphatic, declamatory vocal lines, musically similar to speech, emphasis on using the voice to colour the words, high notes used for dramatic emphasis (equivalent to a scream) in the middle of the aria rather than a "showy" climax at the end, and some lines ending up spoken as in the theatre rather than sung, e.g. "Davanti a lui tremava tutta Roma". Voceditenore (talk) 16:26, 6 May 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for the response -- I agree with your view on the subject. To the extent the word has a clear meaning, the meaning incorporates certain conflicts. David.thompson.esq (talk) 03:04, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Another problem is that article doesn't set the operatic use in the context of the literary movement from which it arose and doesn't even link to Verismo (literature). For the moment I'm going to add a See also section. Some potentially useful sources/backround reading:

• "Uno Squarcio di Vita": Vocal Aspects of Italian Verismo by Konrad Claude Dryden
• Verismo in its Historical Context by Marshall Berland
• The Autumn of Italian Opera: From Verismo to Modernism, 1890 - 1915 by Alan Mallach, UPNE, 2007

Voceditenore (talk) 05:09, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I've looked at the 'Autumn' book, and it has the best explanation I've seen so far of the word. When I get to the reqrite (maybe this weekend) I'll use it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by David.thompson.esq (talk • contribs) 12:51, 8 May 2013 (UTC)

More related articles

In March of this year, the verismo movement in Italian painting and literature was split off into two separate articles: Verismo (painting) a one-sentence unreferenced stub, and Verismo (literature) which is very poorly referenced and fails to set the movements in the context of wider the wider European movement of realism. There seems to be a whole slew of related articles which appear to have developed without a lot reference to each other: Realism (arts) (largely about painting), Literary realism, Realism (theatre), Naturalism (theatre), Chanson réaliste, etc. I'll try to develop Verismo (literature) and Verismo (painting). Voceditenore (talk) 05:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Meanwhile this article should either be moved to the plain word, surely the dominant usage in English, or at the least Verisimo (opera). Personally I think anything on literature and perhaps painting should be covered under "realism" titles; those articles are rubbish and badly need expansion, or more in Realism (arts). "Verismo" outside opera has little currency in English. Are the Macchiaioli really regarded as exponents of "verismo"? It's a treacherous word (set of words) but their commitment to values of naturalism or realism seems less than total. I notice their Italian article does not use the word. But then there "verismo (arte)" redirects to "realismo (arte)" (Courbet, Daumier etc) and plain "Verismo" only deals with literature, & doesn't as much as mention opera that I can see. At Realism (arts) I have tried to avoid the fatal mistake of taking these terms too seriously or at face value. Johnbod (talk) 15:40, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

I agree with you on almost every point. Part of this mess started when an editor moved Verismo to Verismo (music) to make way an article about a Starbucks coffee machine with the astounding proposal: "Article about to be created concerning Starbucks Verismo, which is far more well known than this term of verismo." But the earlier splitting of the article into three didn't help. This article should be minimally Verismo (opera). It doesn't pertain to any other genre of music, and arguably it is the primary usage of "verismo" in English, hence the appropriateness of the redirect from Verismo.

I did some research to see if I could flesh out Verismo (painting). That's a non-starter. It was never a school of Italian painting, and the Macchiaioli are at most described as "veristic" in a couple of sources. Redirecting that to Realism (arts) might be a good idea. Verismo (literature) (arguably the primary meaning of "verismo" in Italian) is viable as a stand-alone article, but needs much better referencing. There's been a lot written about it in English. There's a whole entry for it in Cassell Dictionary Italian Literature (p. 604) and a lengthy chapter in The Cambridge Companion to the Italian Novel. Voceditenore (talk) 17:19, 7 May 2013 (UTC)

Proposed merge of American verismo into Verismo

The sources for an American verismo are very thin - should be incorporated with Verismo article. Rogermx (talk) 14:32, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Very thin indeed - but it should not be merged here, but to Jerry Ross (painter), the real subject. I expect most of it is there already. Johnbod (talk) 22:42, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Oppose – Verismo deals with the opera genre only; American verismo, which seems a made-up term, deals with something else. Merge into Ross. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:32, 7 July 2021 (UTC)

Closing, given the opposition and no consensus for any alternative proposal. Klbrain (talk) 12:59, 21 October 2021 (UTC)