Talk:Vespro della Beata Vergine/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: The Rambling Man (talk · contribs) 10:09, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

Thank you so much for taking this up. The piece is unique in music history, and scholars argue about it. The article history is complex, begun by an IP, and this is the version I found, - let's call it Found. - I am grateful to Brianboulton who had prepared sourcing details in one of his sandboxes for an expansion, and granted me to use it. I expanded, based on some of this, and other sources, and won Thoughtfortheday to write a summary of the recordings. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:48, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Comments

• "the most ambitious work of religious music before Bach," this isn't referenced and doesn't appear to be mentioned or expanded upon in the main body of the article.

  This was in Found. Let's wait a bit and then see if we can support it or have to reword it. It's true, and even an understatement. "ambitious" is certainly supported, in history by him intending that to apply for a better position, in sheer size by not only setting the required vesper parts but addig, and in quality by writing a combination of many styles. --GA

  I dropped the "most" and the reference to Bach, for now. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:27, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• You have "Marian feasts" twice in the lead, the linking is a little odd for me, perhaps you could rephrase one of them.

  Well, I thought that for some readers we need to introduce Mary, but also say that we have an article on the feasts. I try rephasing, help welcome. --GA

• Psalm is overlinked in the lead.

   Fixed Masum Reza^📞 13:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

  Thank you, [Masumrezarock100|, for this and other "done"! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:11, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "first commercial recording of the Vespers was issued in 1953" isn't it normally "released"?

   Done Masum Reza^📞 13:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• Probably worth covering somewhere that it is in Latin (as noted in the infobox but not elsewhere).

  Tried. If we introduce May, we probably should also recall that all Catholic services were in Latin then, and for a long time to follow. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:12, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "published the vespers in 1610 in Venice, with a dedication to Pope Paul V, dated 1 September." tiny bit confused, I assumed the dedication didn't appear in the original publication because that happened in July 1610 (according to the infobox).

  I removed the month from the infobox, - that's when it was announced to begin (in a letter). We don't know when it ended. Yes the dedication was a separate thing, - it was all just parts, remember, no score. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:18, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "The work shows off his " -> "The work demonstrates his..."

   Done Masum Reza^📞 13:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• Why isn't "Ave maris stella" italicised like the article to which it is linked?

  I fixed the linked article. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:23, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "for 6 voices" -> "for six voices"

   Done Masum Reza^📞 13:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "Monteverdi dedicated the work to Pope Paul V, dated 1 September 1610. The printing must have been done with some haste, given this tight schedule" still confused. I guess perhaps there's a difference here between when it was "published" and when it was "printed"? To me they are synonymous.

  see above, about beginning in July, and that the only date we really know, afaik --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:25, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "Note the absence of bar lines." noted, but as this is not discussed at all in the article, what is the relevance?

  removed, from Found --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:30, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "plainchant antiphons" WP:SEAOFBLUE.

  will have to think, another thing from Found, - if traditional you don't have to specify anyway ... --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:33, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

  I reworded the whole para (from Found), please check again. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:37, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "13 sections.[20][16] " numerical order please.

   Fixed Masum Reza^📞 13:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• And since you have "twelve" a couple of sentences later, perhaps go for "thirteen" here.

  I normally go to twelve, not the combined ones ;) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:34, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• Why not use those external links for Bible references in the table?

  Not sure I understand the question. A link to our article on a psalm, say Psalm 110 is much richer than the sourcetext, + the King James Version often deviates from a translation of the Latin. The psalm article includes that text completely, anyway. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:38, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "The LORD said unto my Lord" no need for the SHOUTING.

   Fixed Masum Reza^📞 13:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

  Please revert back. That's not shouting, but two different ways of Hebrew to say "LORD" and "Lord", and is like that in wikisource. It has been explained to me (forgot where, in 2019), and helps those who know the difference. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:41, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

  ​  Self-reverted Thanks. I didn't know that. Masum Reza^📞 14:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

  An user reverted my edits. Masum Reza^📞 22:34, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

  I reverted back. Perhaps put "per GAN" in an edit summary, hinting at this discussion. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 22:42, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

  Technically small caps are more correct. </kibutz Sparafucil (talk) 22:26, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

• "Position of the motets" this section is unreferenced.

  The section from Found is gone. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:51, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "The first commercial recording of the Vespers..." this paragraph is unreferenced.

  We now get to Thoughtfortheday territory. I added the page for the first recording, and the pages for the complete discography. --GA

• "As mentioned elsewhere in this article" we don't write articles like this. Just state it. If you're repeating yourself, don't. If it's just expanding from the lead, fine.

  seems fixed --GA

• See also section normally before Refs.

   Fixed Masum Reza^📞 13:53, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "also known as the Vespers of 1640." fragment, no full stop required.

  shortened anyway --GA

That's it for a first run, I'll put it on hold. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 10:35, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

That's it for first replies. Will tell Thoughtfortheday that this is open. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:16, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

• "He also included a Marian hymn, "Ave maris stella",..." sentence is unreferenced.
• Similarly "The Ave maris stella.." (also, this term is later italicised, in an image caption, so be consistent).
• "Movements of Ave maris stella" table is incomplete, needs remaining cells to be created even if not filled in, or spanned across.
• Refs with page ranges shoul be pp. (e.g. refs 5, 7, 14 [needs en-dash], 23, 28)

The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 06:50, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

fixed, I hope (cursing the automatic italics of the lang template ...) --Gerda Arendt (talk) 08:32, 10 August 2019 (UTC)

Ok Gerda et al, good work, happy to promote this now. Have a good weekend. The Rambling Man (REJOICE!) 09:39, 10 August 2019 (UTC)