Talk:Victorville, California

Old Town Victorville

Hello Hawarren. More than happy to discuss. My rationale for deleting was the "many empty buildings" comment. It seems to attract NNPOV pushers like this and seems to put the town down more than an encyclopedia should. I see it as a slam to a town that I enjoyed living and working in for many years. Your thoughts? --Manway (talk) 19:48, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

I grew up in Victorville and my father owned a business in the Old Town area. Last year, I took a drive through the area and mapped the 'important' places (Route 66 museum, Old Victor School, and the Veteran's Memorial). I did notice that over half the buildings were empty. There was a lot of graffiti, trash, etc. Never witnessed the other things (drugs, etc), but never stayed there long enough or was I looking for it. From the newspaper articles I have read (many are not online), there was a lot of controversy on the effect of the revitalization project. One group pushed for it and another did not. My intent was not to get into that aspect and just write what was there at the time. I propose we re-add the Old Town area with the removal of "any empty buildings". Then, perhaps, if I get sometime research the two sides and present both cases and then look for documentation on the current status of the project. Thoughts? Hawarren (talk) 19:59, 14 October 2010 (UTC)

Try that, Hawarren. I reworded and tried to get the most egregious stuff out of there. I think its worded better and still mentions the empty buildings, while maintaining the controversial nature of the revitalization project and that its success is questionable. Is that acceptable? --Manway (talk) 00:28, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Hawarren (talk) 19:24, 15 October 2010 (UTC)

The following links can be provide an insight to the current state of the Old Town area. The revitalization project began in 1995 and the controversy surrounding the project can be found in the Daily Press, which is not available online. There is mention in the links. Having toured the area last year and marking the "historic" points (i.e. Route 66 museum, Veteran's memorial, Old Victor School) and places their locations on wikipedia, I found the area mostly empty. Now, if the above projects mentioned in the last rewrite has changed this area, which I know hasn't as I was in Old Town in 2010 and the rewrite most recent changes are in 2008, then please change the text, but I believe a combination of both the previous written article with the new information is the most correct and up to date. Thoughts?

http://rwarn17588.wordpress.com/2007/03/15/victorvilles-old-town-tries-to-lure-artists/

http://www.route66ca.org/traveler/towns/16victor/oldtown.html

http://www.donray.com/High-Desert-Homeless.htm

http://artsblog.tatianajimenez.com/photography/i-saw-the-sign-victorville-edition/

Possible copyright violation in History section

I removed must of the history content that was copied from [1]. It appears to have been added in this edit: [2]. -SpuriousQ 03:10, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Reverted some vandalism. -Nentuaby 01:36, 8 March 2007 (UTC)

information?

In 1992, George AFB was deactivated and is now Southern California Logistics Airport. The former base housing is now vacant, forming a ghost town that is used for military training purposes by troops from Fort Irwin Military Reservation.

I have never known Fort Irwin to be sending people to the military housing area for training. Is there a source on this?

However I do know that there is industrial construction all over Phantom Rd. and over 30 businesses including refueling companies, warehouses, small manufacturing, "ebusinesses", chartered transportation and of course they have a list of "Big Names" too which have been there for a few years.

I was just there last month and the housing is like a ghost town. I believe the person may be talking about how troops are flown in to Southern California Logisitcs and then trained at Fort Irwin. Hawarren (talk) 03:46, 8 July 2009 (UTC)HAWARREN

There's a website: http://www.logisticsairport.com/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.119.87.122 (talk) 06:15, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I used to golf there frequently before they shut down the course. The military would stage urban warfare training in the abandoned housing units. I almost hit an APC with a bad slice once. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.166.187.149 (talk) 15:46, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

The training is not something you would necessarily see. Sometimes the soldiers are there, sometimes not. No special actions are taken, and they leave the place like they found it. They simply use the abandoned houses to practice combat in urban situations. It will be hard to source this short of actually calling someone at Fort Irwin, who would be unlikely to comment anyway. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 130.166.187.149 (talk) 15:51, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Public Safety

There must be a resident of the Victor Valley(either Victorville or Hesperia)/fellow Wikipedian(?) who keeps editing everything about the Sheriff's Department's role in providing services to this area, and DOESN'T appreciate what anyone is doing to the articles...Baldwin91006 (talk) 03:10, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Needs Citation?

"There is also the Victorville Police Department, which also is contracted through the San Bernardino County Sheriff's Department, and is among one of the busiest stations in the county." I didn't see any citation that confirms the Sheriff's Department is, in fact, "one of the busiest stations in the country." Can someone provide a link proving this, or should I go ahead and remove it? Shdwninja8 (talk) 03:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

On November 19, 1954, Sammy Davis, Jr. almost died in an automobile accident in Victorville on a return trip from Las Vegas to Los Angeles. Davis lost his left eye as a result, and wore a glass eye for the rest of his life. There is no citation for this source. This contradicts cited information posted on page for Sammy Davis Jr. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Soonerkat (talk • contribs) 02:43, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

I believe the accident happened on 395 outside of Victorville. Hawarren (talk) 03:47, 8 July 2009 (UTC)HAWARREN

Many history facts are lacking a citation. I'll go through and remove those if a citation is not added. 172.249.130.0 (talk) 09:20, 9 July 2016 (UTC)

Notable People from Victorville

Thomas Denny, Ferrid Kheder, Paul Karsky, Isaac Newman-Gomez, and Gregg Dalton are found on sherdog.com.

Lesser known fighters (Jason Walraven, Gregg Dalton, and Seth Dikum) can be found on High Desert MMA.

http://www.bonecrushersnews.com/index.php?main_page=index&cPath=75&zenid=716e99481c1c6823e75e82449f2d99c2 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawarren (talk • contribs) 23:02, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

See User:Uncle G/On notability - "The primary criterion for notability is whether the subject of an article has been the subject of non-trivial published works by multiple separate sources that are independent of that subject, which applies to all classes of subjects." Your sources are self-referential advertisement pages for the subject's fighting leagues. Hardly independent. If you wish to pursue this further, please ask an admin about this. I believe your sources are not acceptable. Sorry. --Manway (talk) 06:13, 10 July 2009 (UTC)

There are many more sources for notability. Thomas Denny has appeared on MTV's Bully Beatdown as hailing from Victorville. He and Ferrid Kheder have wikipedia articles already. Notable enough for a single page. Isaac Newman-Gomez has his own fight page. Besides all the fighters mentioned appearing on sherdog's fight finder and bonecrusher news, a quick google or yahoo search on Paul Karsky, Isaac Newman-Gomez, and Greg Dalton produce numerous sources as being notable MMA fighters. Although, not as successful as Dan Henderson or Joe Stevenston, they are professional fighters with at least one maining an appearance outside of a sanctioned MMA fight (Thomas Denny). There notability is equal to or greater than Bryan Herman, Prem Reddy, Trevor Keith, Matt Riddle. All of which does not have a source listed on this page. I would agree with Jason Walraven and Seth Dikum needing more notability before adding to the page, but the other fighters have serveral sources, so I am going to restore the four fighters mentioned. Hawarren (talk) 04:11, 11 July 2009 (UTC)HAWARREN

The fact that Wikipedia has an article about a subject is not proof of notability: there are, unfortunately, many Wikipedia articles which are not properly sourced. I have checked the sources cited in the relevant Wikipedia articles, and none of them could by any stretch of imagination be considered to indicate substantial independent coverage of the the required. For example, the only citation given in the article Thomas Denny (fighter) is this one [3]. We are told "Isaac Newman-Gomez has his own fight page". What does that mean? It reads to me as though it may mean that he has posted a page about himself on the internet: if so, it certainly does not establish notability, as anyone could do that. If it does not mean that, then what does it mean?

"X is at least as notable as Y, who is mentioned without a source being given" does not establish notability of X either. It could be that neither X nor Y is notable, and both should be removed. Alternatively it could be that Y is very notable, and reliable sources exist, but have not been cited, while no reliable sources exist for X. The only way to establish notability for X is to give sources for X which satisfy Wikipedia'a criteria for notability: whether Y is notable or not is irrelevant. JamesBWatson (talk) 08:48, 11 July 2009 (UTC)

So basically, after all of this, you want the sources listed?

Here is Thomas Denny info: (I'll get to the others later)

His fighter page: http://thomasdenny.com/wildman2k4/index.html
Pro fight record from sherdog: http://www.sherdog.com/fighter/Thomas-Denny-1339
Note: sherdog is a legit MMA site that is in partnership with ESPN
As cast member of MYV's Bully Beatdown:
http://www.mtv.com/ontv/dyn/bully_beatdown/cast_member/cast_member.jhtml?personalityId=11744
Various Articles:
http://fiveouncesofpain.com/2008/07/12/5-oz-feature-underdog-thomas-wildman-denny-ready-for-the-opportunity-of-a-lifetime/
http://www.premierfighter.com/pages/thomas-denny
http://bleacherreport.com/articles/188783-thomas-wildman-denny-the-bully-that-got-beat-down
http://www.kingofthecage.com/krazy-mike_12.html
Yahoo search results:
http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0geu8XJ3FhKXlwBx_VXNyoA?p=thomas+denny+wildman&y=Search&fr=b1ie7&fr2=sb-top&sao=0
Google search results:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=thomas+denny+wildman&aq=f&oq=&aqi=
—Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawarren (talk • contribs) 18:46, 11 July 2009 and slightly modified by the same editor 18:48, 11 July 2009

I am very grateful to Hawarren for this clarification. Hawarren's extensive listing of what he/she regards as sources has confirmed exactly what my own searches had indicated: however, the fact that these are the only types of sources found by someone so keen to keep the references gives a stronger indication that they probably are the only types available. The first one, a link to a page at http://thomasdenny.com, declares itself to be self-published, and is clearly not an independent source. The others are links to publicity material, fight reports, and the like: as Manway says above, many are "self-referential advertisement pages for the subject's fighting leagues". None of them comes anywhere near to the sort of citation required by Wikipedia's verifiability policy and notability guideline. Since Hawarren has clarified the matter so well, removing what little doubt there was about the notability of these people, I have removed the information from the article. JamesBWatson (talk) 11:48, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

I still have to diagree with my first example, Thomas Denny. The entry on Sherdog is in conjunction with ESPN.com, the leader in sports reporting. Approximately 90% of all MMA related material on ESPN is provided by Sherdog (http://espn.go.com/mma/). Thomas Denny's appearance on Bully Beatdown, a reality-like show, is from the MTV web site. Another example, I have given, is from Bleacher Report, a smaller sports news page. The bleacher report and ESPN are sports news sites, not MMA sites. The other sources I listed are strictly MMA news or MMA promotion sites. There are numerous others. I have read the verifiability policy and Sherdogs, Bleacher Report, and MTVs web site is sufficient for the notability of Thomas Denny. JamesBWatson, are you a moderator? If not, I would like a ruling by one them? Thanks. 72.82.117.93 (talk) 01:21, 14 July 2009 (UTC)HAWARREN

Hello everyone. Here are a few unsolicited thoughts from me. The guideline WP:ATHLETE says that atheletes are notable if they've competed at the 'fully professional' level of a sport. Is King of the cage fully professional? If so then he is indeed notable regardless of the reliability or otherwise of the sources cited by Hawarren. If not then we need to consider them. My opinion is that these two look sufficient, but I'm prepared to discuss James's reasons for disagreeing.

As for the television appearance, WP:ENTERTAINER says that 'significant roles in multiple notable films, television, stage performances, or other productions' confer notability; an appearance in a single reality television series doesn't seem to meet this, and my memory of similar cases suggests that other editors agree (a couple of arbitrary examples here and here).

Also, Hawarren, Wikipedia doesn't have 'moderators' in the sense you probably mean. There are editors called administrators but their role includes technical things like deleting pages and blocking troublesome editors - they have no more weight in content discussions than you or I. There are various venues for seeking input of other editors, but hopefully the three of us can come to some agreement. Olaf Davis (talk) 08:47, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I've asked about the 'fully professional' issue at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Mixed martial arts. Olaf Davis (talk) 08:53, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

You may wish to read the WT:WikiProject Mixed martial arts#Guidelines for notability it's all a bit of a debate... On the spesifics of Thomas Denny, if MTV are classing him as a professional the that is a fair source. Looking @ his record, he's the equivelent of a C/D list celebrity in the MMA world, he's fought in a couple of large shows & fought a couple of big names (Miletich & Diaz) so it depends on what line your drawing for includsion. --Nate1481 09:49, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

Considering that Thomas Denny has had over 40 professional fights from King of the Cage to Shooto in Japan and has been classified by MTV as a professional fighter, it is safe to assume he meets and exceeds the guidelines as WP:ATHLETE and is notable. I have restored his name, but am willing to discuss why he should not be listed. Hawarren (talk) 19:05, 16 July 2009 (UTC)HAWARREN

• Manway asked me to give my opinion here. I work on many articles about cities and towns, so I'm familiar with the usual standards for "notable residents" sections. The usual standard for inclusion is a list like this is to have either a "blue link", meaning a biography on Wikipedia, or references to reliable sources which show that the persion would clearly meet the notability standards. In this case, I think that it is unlikely that Ollie Butler is notable by Wikipedia standards, but the only way to be sure is to write an article abut him. Regarding the other people, I don't see a problem with including them if they have WP articles. Finally, like any part of an article these assertions should be verifiable. We should be able, if asked, to point to reliable sources that show these people have actually lived in this city. I did some spot-checking and see that in some cases the WP biographies don't mention Victorville. Due ot the nature of schools in rurual areas, it appears that some people may have lived outside of Victorville and simply commuted to high school or college. If so, they probably do not qualify as residents.   Will Beback  talk  21:45, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

High Speed Railway

Any information on the new railway being built from Victorville to Las Vegas? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 97.93.131.172 (talk) 01:18, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

https://abc7.com/travel/southern-california-las-vegas-rail-to-be-built-along-i-15/6288334/

Here is an update as of 2020 there is a proposed High Speed Rail route to Victorville from Las Vegas. XpressWest the group lobbying for the High Speed Rail line is behind the Las Vegas to Victorville talks2601:640:C600:3C20:5DBB:157:1800:F9DB (talk) 16:22, 1 July 2020 (UTC)

Ollie Butler

Manway, I believe you are wrong in local people are not notable. Read the section on Notability_(people), the basic criteria and then read the additional criteria, on biography. Not only has a biography been authored by a second party, but he received the highest award for coaching (HOF is Southern California) and winningiest coach in San Berndino County history, a county larger than some New England states! His biography and notability is similiar to Lou Cvijanovich, a high school basketball coach and listed on Oxnard, CA and Santa_Clara_High_School_(Oxnard). He is also a local notable celebrity and local legend, which qualifies under Wikipedia's guidlines. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hawarren (talk • contribs) 19:55, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

Re: "Ollie: The Ollie Butler Story" by David Kniss, January 17, 2003. ISBN 978-1403378606. Amazon listing]

This book appears to have been published by 1st Books Library, now called "Authorhouse", which is what's known as a vanity press.[4] In other words, the author paid to have the book published and it probably did not receive any editorial oversight. On Wikipedia, self published sources are only usable for refrences about the author, not any third parties. See WP:SPS. The existence of the book does not establish notability.   Will Beback  talk  21:32, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

PS: I sent you an email about an article I found about the resignation.   Will Beback  talk  22:35, 25 July 2009 (UTC)

History section a mess

The history section is a mess. The first paragraph seems to be more about the history of Aaron Lane than about the origin of Victorville. It goes on with information that has nothing to do with the foundation of Victorville, other than the fact that he lived in the area. I don't think it belongs on the Victorville page.

Furthermore, the first paragraph of the history section is extremely long while other paragraphs in the section are relatively short. It makes the whole section look awkward and obviously not well-written. Anyone else feel the same way about the history section? Mikep85 (talk) 12:36, 15 January 2013 (UTC)

How far north was Lane's Crossing from Interstate 15? I tried looking for the exact spot on Google Maps.

--173.55.248.118 (talk) 10:34, 2 February 2013 (UTC)Me

Old Town Victorville redux

Regarding this; added, removed, added again, I'm about to remove it because it's duplicative of what's there now, promotional in tone, and unsourced. There may be something we can make of it, though. Let's discuss!— alf laylah wa laylah (talk) 00:05, 10 April 2014 (UTC) November 2014, two buildings were set on fire by homeless people. I doubt the program has been a success or is moving in the right direction.

http://www.vvdailypress.com/article/20141129/NEWS/141129784

Did you know?

Victorville, CA, is in the UK Daily News: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3041743/Boeing-Boeing-gone-amazing-Californian-scrap-yard-jumbo-jets-globe-sent-die-rescued-grave.html -- AstroU (talk) 20:58, 16 April 2015 (UTC) -- "Southern California Logistics Airport in Victorville is one of the world's largest aircraft breakers yards."

Climate section

Copied from my talk

The IP edits to the climate section are mostly spam. I checked some of the sources and they barely cover what has been entered. I think the climate section should be rolled back to your last edit in December. I don't think we should pick though a spammers huge edit to find the small bits that are actually sourced. What do you think? Magnolia677 (talk) 21:21, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: Spooky :P I was just looking at that change and was going to revert, but decided to wait and see if another watcher felt the same as me. I visited the source, didn't read much but it seems unrelated to the context so I have to agree with you on the version restore. - Mlpearc (open channel) 21:33, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

How is it unrelated? The info is supported by my sources and in the table. Users here seem to have a bias against IP editors. Not all of us are vandals or cause nothing but trouble, you know. BTW: you will be surprised to hear this, but I am former StevenD99. I once retired, but still could not get enough of wiki editing, and secretly edited under an IP address until now. I just thought I would not be active enough or would no longer have enough interest to maintain my account here. But, this situation is probably going to make me leave for good. Seriously, what is unrelated? 66.214.121.92 (talk) 21:56, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Adding new edit under filming location

Hello, I am looking to add a new addition under filming locations. It will be for the Foo Fighters 'Times Like These' 2nd video that went unreleased that was filmed in Victorville. Would it still work since all the other entries are filmography? I am new to wikipedia editing as well so I am trying to get the hang of it. Jukebox01 (talk) 06:13, 24 November 2023 (UTC)

Adding content needs reliable sources and to be notable. The existing mention of Victorville in this article lacks a reliable source. 〜 Adflatuss • talk 16:12, 24 November 2023 (UTC)