Talk:Vivian Solon

Mental illness

Could we elaborate on the nature of her mental illness? I'd like to know more, and I haven't seen it covered in too much detail.

That would be because no detail has yet emerged, not least because of the reticentness of the Howard Government and the negligence of the Department of Immigration. One hopes a Royal Commission will eventually be established to shed light on this most tragic of wrongdoings.--Cyberjunkie 15:06, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Also remember that she is a human being, and thus entitled to rights such as privacy, particularly where medical conditions are concerned. I added a statistic to the story, this point should not be so heavily emphasised in the media, as one in five people in Australia have been diagnosed with a mental condition. - Shevek 14:51, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Philippines

What is her legal status in the Philippines? Its hard to believe they accepted someone as their citizen without any checking up, just because Australian Immigration said they should. --ScottDavis 23:08, 15 May 2005 (UTC)

Once again, how the deportation was carried out is yet to be revealed. Certainly, if this is the result of the proceedure, one wonders if it could be called 'legal' or 'due process'.--Cyberjunkie 07:21, 16 May 2005 (UTC)

Who said they accepted her as a citizen? I better re-read the article I guess. - Shevek 15:08, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

POV

Hello everyone

I propose a rollback of edits made by User:Shevek.

my reasons :

• "when she was suddenly and mysteriously deported. Australian relatives including her infant son, did not know of her 2001 deportation until 2005, and she had been listed as a missing person."

i believe that this statement is a sensationalisation of what really happened. (possible npov violation?) --Iambuttons 11:36, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

DIMIA do not accept the phrase 'wrongful deportation' so that is NPOV already. I was trying to correct that by describing what happened. It is not sensational - what words do you use to describe what happened to her? Was it not sudden? Was it not mysterious? Which of these two adjectives do you think is a sensation? I shall use it to launch a brand of laundry powder.

I can tell you it was both, please compare the case with any other cases you can find out about by trawling the net, her deportation was sudden in comparison with many illegal immigrants. Look at Cornelia Rau who was locked up here for 10 months. Alvarez I have heard was deported in three days flat. And the fact that even her immediate family were not alerted, and nobody outside of DIMIA knew what had happened for 4 years, is mysterious. I assert that the original state of the article, and your rollback is POV. Please do not re-POV the article. - Shevek 15:06, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

• there are also problems with facts. Vivian did not have an infant son when she was deported / when she went missing --Iambuttons 11:36, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Well I'm not sure where her 9-year-old Australian child comes from then? - Shevek 15:06, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I am now curious of whether you have even read the article beyond the first paragraph. Because the next one starts like this:

Deportation from Australia

According to a police report, Solon had left her five year old son at the Brisbane City Hall childcare facility, but did not return to pick him up.

Shevek 15:20, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

read it? i wrote it. ;-P

i'm more curious about whether or not you read the rest of the article (or kept up with the news) since you seem quite determined about the three day deportation scenario

--Iambuttons 16:21, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

• i think the first paragraph (before Shevek's edits) actually states the reason why Vivian Solon is special => " In May 2005, it was discovered that she was wrongfully deported as an illegal immigrant in July 2001."

No, she is more special than that. DIMIA sat on the information for two whole years after they found out. Her immediate family in Australia did not know she had been deported. Nobody knew. They told no-one. - Shevek 15:20, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

• This is the orgininal paragraph before User:Shevek's edits.

Vivian Solon, also Vivian Alvarez and sometimes Vivian Young, is a migrant Australian citizen who had been living in Australia for at least 18 years. She migrated to Australia in the 1980s via spousal visa after marrying an Australian with whom she had one child and subsequently separated. A later relationship resulted in another child. According to her family, she has a history of mental illness that immigration officers were unaware of when they encountered her. In May 2005, it was discovered that she was wrongfully deported as an illegal immigrant in July 2001.

I've put it here as an archive.

If there isn't any strong dissent against rolling it back over the weekend, I'll bring the paragraph back when i update the page with new information on Monday. --Iambuttons 11:36, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

I do agree with you, I believe that the new edits are non-NPOV. Rollback. I've also added a NPOV dispute tag. - Aaron Hill 12:11, May 20, 2005 (UTC)

I reverted the article before I viewed this discussion, but I may as well record my agreement. They were POV additions in the main, but also inappropriate for the introductory paragraph.--Cyberjunkie 12:14, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

No, they explain what the whole article is about so the reader knows why they are reading about 18 year resident so-and-so with-a-family-who-is-very-nice, which is how the original read. - Shevek 15:06, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

a couble of points :

* use of the term infant

when i made that comment about her son not being an infant, i was using the layman's understanding of the term infant - which by anyone's defination, is a child at the early stage of development. unless a legally trained individual is reading the article, one wouldn't be assuming from reading the amendment that a minor was involved.

* use of the term sudden

there was nothing sudden about the deportation. its quite obvious that Shevek made the amendments based on Shevek's assumptions of what the case is all about. if one reads all the relevant referenced articles, one will discover that there was at least three months between when Vivian was picked up by DIMIA, and when she arrived in Manila.

* use of the term mysterious

while it is a mystery to the public what exactly happened, and the facts are slowly being unfolded, i think its a stretch to use mysterious to describe what happened in this case. From the facts that have been uncovered so far, it is quite clear that there was deliberate intent from DIMIA for the deportation to take place. There are a couple more updates i haven't done to the article with reference to newspaper articles and radio interviews that reflect the facts.

* use of the term wrongfully deported

Solon was an Australian. She possessed an Australian passport. The Prime Minister has offered a qualified apology on two occassions. While the lawyers would rub their hands with glee as their pockets get filled for spending time in the courts trying to determine whether or not the deportation was wrongful, the facts demonstrate quite clearly that her deportation was a mistake. So I don't see why describing her plight as wrongfully deported is any further from the truth.

* DIMIA sitting on information

while I concur that DIMIA not revealing that they had the knowledge is an interesting information to share, the key point about Vivian is that as an Australian with an Australian passport, she was deported by the Australian authorities. I do not personally believe that DIMIA not sharing information with the family carries more weight than any of the other aspects of this case. I would even argue that the fact that so many levels of government were involved (even international agencies) yet Solon was still deported is a more interesting than just DIMIA sitting on information

--Iambuttons 16:21, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

Neutrality

This article has been tagged as POV. I suspect that this tag largely referred to the introductory paragraph, which has since been rectified. I am reluctant to remove the tag, however, as there may well be other points of contention with the article. Please identify them here, so that they may be fixed.--Cyberjunkie 15:05, 20 May 2005 (UTC)

The opening paragraph continues to be edited and reverted. Below is a suggestion for the wording of the opening paragraph - perhaps people can discuss it here rather than continually changing the article.

Vivian Solon, also known as Vivian Alvarez and Vivian Young, is an Australian citizen who was reported by the media in Australia to be wrongfully deported to the Philippines by the Department of Immigration and Multicultural and Indigenous Affairs (DIMIA) in July 2001. In May 2005, it became public knowledge that she had been deported, although DIMIA knew of their mistake in 2003. Solon's family had listed her as a missing person in early 2001, and until May 2005, did not know that she had been deported. The circumstances surrounding Solon's wrongful deportation have caused much controversy in the Australian media.

Solon migrated from the Phillipines to Australia in the 1980s on a spousal visa after marrying an Australian man, with whom she had one child. A later relationship resulted in another child. According to her family, Solon had a history of mental illness that DIMIA officials were unaware of when they encountered her.

(Yes I know that this is two paragraphs!) I believe that this wording puts the focus on her deportation first and foremost, but doesn't stray into POV. I'm open to suggestions on the last sentence of the first paragraph however, it's a little weaselly as it stands. --bainer 01:10, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I think that proposed introduction is a valuable enhancement. I support the article being revised to incorporate it. Over time, as the article becomes more complete, the introduction will open to further enhancements.--Cyberjunkie 08:11, 21 May 2005 (UTC)

I like the new paragraph. Just to avoid the argument of the legality of the use of the term wrongfully deported, i've suggested that we insert the phrase reported by the media in Australia to be to more accurately reflect the spirit of the case. --Iambuttons 01:03, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Given that the deportation is self-evidently "wrongful", I doubt any further qualification is required. Shevek's claim that DIMIA do not "accept" the case being described as "wrongful" is weak and unsubstantiated. I have not come across any sources in which DIMIA reject "wrongful" and I'm sure that an examination of Lateline transcripts would show Minister Vanstone herself using the word. --Cyberjunkie 04:31, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

This is from Lateline, 9 May:

TONY JONES: But you would agree in this case something has gone awfully, terribly, tragically wrong?

AMANDA VANSTONE: Clearly.

TONY JONES: Criminally wrong?

AMANDA VANSTONE: I don't think it's helpful to speculate without knowing the facts...

I don't think it's too much of a problem using the word wrong. I don't believe the wording as it stands implies anything criminal. --bainer 05:24, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Needs updating

I'm not particularly well-informed on the latest developments however I do know as much as that a financial compensation deal with the govt has been agreed to. A few areas need updating. Timeshift 11:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

WP:ONEEVENT

Shouldn't this page be renamed according to WP:ONEEVENT? Actually, I think there is a case to merge with Cornelia Rau, given they were around the same time. --Surturz (talk) 04:14, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

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