Talk:Voiced velar approximant

English Allophone

English really doesn't have this at all? I'm fairly sure I have it as an allophone of /r/ after /k/ and /g/, as in crown and grow, for example. I may be mishearing it, though. Any other opinions? WurdBendur 04:11, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

English /r/, at least in my dialect, is labiovelarized [ɹʷ] in syllable-onset position, so it does have a velar component. Maybe that's what you're hearing? kwami 05:25, 17 December 2005 (UTC)

That may be, though someone else I've asked attests to having [M\_?\_P] for /r/ at onset. I suppose that doesn't mean much. WurdBendur 06:04, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what those symbols mean. kwami

Sorry, I'm using X-SAMPA. That's a pharyngealized labiodentalized velar approximant.

Oops, that's Z- SAMPA [1]. That's probably why you don't recognize it. WurdBendur 07:31, 18 December 2005 (UTC)

French?

That's hard to believe. I've been to France for months and have never heard that. French /k/ and /g/ are palatal or maybe palatovelar. When I turn French /g/ into an approximant, the result is basically [j] – which I haven't heard either. And what is the tie bar doing in the example? Is it supposed to be the IPA stress mark (a sort of apostrophe)?

BTW, what about Polish ł? Is this really [w] all over the country?

Yes, it is. The `ł' letter is pronouced as [w]. Some older people pronounce it as [ɫ], but even in this group it is rare. You can hear [ɫ] sound in some films from 1920-1930s. Xpicto (talk) 17:50, 27 August 2016 (UTC)

No, it can be a velarized dental lateral approximant (IPA [ɫ]) as well. But this pronunciation is limited to older people from eastern Poland nowadays

David Marjanović | david.marjanovic_at_gmx.at | 00:09 CEST | 2006/4/7

I'm a native speaker of French, and I have heard it, lots of times. It's even rendered "ta yeule" on the 'net, but I agree [j] is probably more precise, or maybe a velarised [j], [jˠ], just like the French stops are actually slightly affricated [ts], [dz], [kx], [gɣ]. I won't remove it until we come to a consensus though.

Well, I live in Quebec, so I dunno how widespread approximation/affrication is. Maybe the user also comes from Quebec?

And I seriously doubt French internal stops are palatals. Wouldn't it sound more like [c], [ɟ] then?

Valkari 03:50, 19 May 2006 (UTC)

The affrication is typical of Québec.

I'll put a "dubious" tag on the example so people recognize the uncertainty.

French /k/ and /g/ are "velar or maybe palatovelar" is what I wanted to write last year. They are not palatals; they are somewhat fronted velars [k̟, g˖]. David Marjanović 20:41, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Spanish?

This webpage indicates that the Velar approximant is used in Spanish whenever the letter /g/ is not before a nasal or starting a word...I am a native Spanish-speaker and even if I have heard this phoneme used, I wouldnt consider it a rule...The phrase "el gato" is commonly pronounced (at least in Venezuela) [el-'ga.to] and not [el-ˈɰa.to].

I think the example was indeed badly chosen. A better one would be "la gata" [la ɰata]. According to Spanish phonology, el gato can be either [elˈgat̪o] or [elˈɰat̪o]. FilipeS 00:06, 9 July 2007 (UTC)

I think so too, i'm a Spanish speaker and I'm sure the word "algo" (something) is pronounced /'alɰo/ rather than /'algo/, because it would sound like /'alko/ to a Spanish speaker. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.137.241.251 (talk) 00:47, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

The velar approximant is much more prevalent in Iberian Spanish than Latin-American Spanish. It can be clearly heard in the pronunciation of words like "lugar" and "pagar" as said by a Spaniard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.124.151 (talk) 17:27, 3 March 2013 (UTC)

Another symbol

The article should mention the fact that the symbol /ɣ/ is often used for this phone, with or without a lowering diacritic. FilipeS 16:17, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

P.S. See also the Discussion at "Voiced velar fricative". FilipeS 16:31, 25 April 2007 (UTC)

Mandarin...

…has the back close unrounded vowel, [ɯ], as a phoneme, not the voiced velar approximant, [ɰ], so I removed the claim that it had the approximant. David Marjanović 20:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

It exists in Mandarin. Pinyin syllables with a plain "e" are pronounced [ɯ̯ʌ], that was the vowel you mentioned. But if the syllable is only "e" without onset, it becomes [ɰʌ]. It's the same thing with [i] becoming [j]. --Explosivo (talk) 01:12, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Unrounded?

[...] <ɰ> is specifically unrounded.

Could this be a nonstandard way of saying that <ɰ> is voiced? FilipeS (talk) 20:35, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

No. It means that <ɰ> does not have a labial element like <w> does. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 22:02, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

And does [ɣ] have such an element? FilipeS (talk) 18:45, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

[ɣ] is neutral to rounding. Is there a way that this can be more clearly articulated in the article? Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 20:46, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I understand now. You're saying that the Spanish sound can be rounded or unrounded, but ɰ is only supposed to represent unrounded sounds, right?... FilipeS (talk) 20:58, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Right. I was trying to get the article to say that too. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

But don't you think this should be mention in the Voiced velar fricative article, too? FilipeS (talk) 21:16, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

That's a good idea. Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:20, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sound file

In my opinion, the person on the recording is pronouncing a fricative and not an approximant. There's too much noise here - the approximant is "gentler". I happen to know that, because I often use this approximant as a replacement of the standard rhotic of my native Bulgarian (an alveolar trill), but since this argument doesn't weigh much per se, compare the renditions in two of the external links from the IPA article:

• Paul Meier Dialect Services — IPA Charts, including English diphthongs

• IPA chart with MP3 sound files for all IPA symbols on the chart (limited version is available to anyone)

--91.148.159.4 (talk) 13:50, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Catalan, Galician, Northern Portuguese

I'd definitely add intervocalic 'g' in all these three languages, just as in Spanish. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.141.135.103 (talk • contribs)

Yes, for the first two. These claims are backed up, respectively, by

• Wheeler, Max W (2005). The Phonology Of Catalan. Oxford: Oxford University Press. ISBN 0199258147. page 10 (though this can also be a fricative)
• Regueira, Xose (1996), "Galician", Journal of the International Phonetic Alphabet, 26 (2): 119–122 page 121

However, in Northern Portugal, sources I've seen say they're fricatives, not approimants. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 05:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Icelandic example: where's the ɰ?

Icelandic saga [ˈsaɣa] 'history, story, saga' See Icelandic phonology
Oh, I see: The IPA symbol ⟨ɣ⟩, which otherwise signifies a voiced velar fricative, is sometimes used for the velar approximant as well (with a lowering diacritic ⟨ɣ˕⟩ when specificity is required).. So, why not use ɰ as in the other examples? -- megA (talk) 17:24, 27 November 2011 (UTC)

I think it has something to do with the traditional description of Icelandic. I don't care if you change it, though it would be good to have a citation to confirm that it is really the approximant that is used in this specific instance. --JorisvS (talk) 16:42, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

I don't know enough about Icelandic to do that; I was wondering because this article deals with ɰ, not with ɣ, so the example would not actually belong here... The above sentence ("is sometimes used") also doesn't explain what "sometimes" means... -- megA (talk) 09:39, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

It may be something similar with Spanish, where it's often an approximant but can be more constricted in emphatic speech. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[ãːɱ ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɪ̃ə̃nlɪ]} 03:24, 28 December 2011 (UTC)