Talk:Volga Germans

[Untitled]

This is barely English, poorly organized, and I have a bad feeling about it. It's reminiscent of User:H.J.. Vicki Rosenzweig 21:50 18 Jul 2003 (UTC)

Yes, it could be better written, but from the history, people from 2 different IP addresses (clearly not from the same subnet) editted it before I touched it. (And for one of them, English not her/his first language.) And from my knowledge of Russian history, it appears to be accurate so far -- it's clearly a stub.

If you'd like, Vicki, I'll add it to my watch list & help it along. I'm willing to take the risk that this won't become another point of bitterness here on WikiP. -- llywrch 03:45 19 Jul 2003 (UTC)

The Article Germans from Russia which is about an American ethnic group has been redirected here, truncated and merged. I think it should go back to being an independent article. The story of the Volga Germans, is also very interesting and can be substantially expanded, but is really a different story as the division between the two groups generally occured before the Revolution. The only contact most Americans of German-Russian heritage ever had was an occasional pitiful letter from distant relatives. Fred Bauder 15:59, Apr 5, 2004 (UTC)

I second that. Let's start from the separation within the current article first. Mikkalai 16:52, 5 Apr 2004 (UTC)

---

I have created a stub German-Russian for information on people of German ethnic background who have adopted Russian culture such as Lenin or Vilyam Genrikovich Fisher.

--- My sources are people I "interviewed" - my parents and grandparents OGT

---

Volga-germanism of most of thse people is not verifiable in wikipedia. NOt to say what Catherine the Great is doing here.

• Descendants of Germans from Russia include John Denver, Lawrence Welk, Angie Dickinson, Steven Dietz, Dawna Friesen, Jeff Friesen, Robyn Regehr, Matt Groening, Chris Isaak, Jesse M. Unruh, Tom Daschle, Roy Romer, Cheryl Ladd, and Sergio Denis.

• Public persons some not quite so famous include Catherine the Great, Les Dudek,

John Hessler ,John Klein, Leroy Lehr. Adolph Lesser, Svyatoslav Richter, George Henry Sauer, Nancy Jones Schaefer, Willard Schmidt, Alfred Schnittke, Ron Schuele, Armin Mueller-Stahl , Benjamin F. Brack, Oscar Brosz, Al Duerr, Merle Freitag, Charles Gemar, Jim Geringer, Count Hans Moritz Haucke, Richard Hieb, Robert W. Hirsch, Joseph Kessler, Otto Krueger, Roland Kunfeld, Count Fyodor Petrovich Litke, Reuben Metter, David J. Miller, Allen Neuharth, Toby Roth, Harvey Wollman, Dr. George P. Epp, and Rudy Wiebe

I suspect these lists were simply copied from some webpages. Many of the persons are probably not famous. You cannot just trow a bunch of names into an encyclopedia without saying a word about them, unless the name is of world fame. But in the last case at least a stub is reasonably to expect. Please clean this up. Mikkalai 20:50, 17 May 2004 (UTC)

Personal observation only, but according to my dad (first generation German-Russian American), Lawrence Welk is indeed a German Russian (grew up in the same area in ND as my dad and is a distant cousin, apparently) and so is Tom Daschle. I'm sure this can be found out with a quick Google--I'm too lazy to do it right now. Katr67 22:07, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Serious historical error in this article

A portion of this article has significant error in it.

First, the Black Sea Germans would not like to be associated in name with the Volga Germans. Their primary migration to that region occurred after 1800 and was not influenced in any way by Catherine who died in 1796. The migration was separate and distinct from that of the Volga Germans and occurred under different circumstances.

Second, Catherine the Great's Manifestos applied to all Europeans, not just Germans. Germans happened to respond in greatest numbers due to conditions in regions where they lived. Some Russian Germans make much of the fact that she was German herself but this in no way had anything to do with their migration to the Volga River region.

Third, based on the above, Germans had no special privileges in Russia that did not also apply to other ethnic groups that migrated under the Manifesto terms.

Sources: Human Capital by Roger Bartlett; From Catherine to Kruschev by Adam Giesinger

I have therefore modified the article to incorporate this information.

Jerry Frank FranklySpeaking_at_shaw.ca —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.89.225.107 (talk • contribs)

"Health Consequences"

There was information pasted into the article directly from this source:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=3345066&dopt=Abstract

It is possible it might fit into the article if it were properly paraphrased and wikified. Katr67 21:59, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Proper redirect of Germans from Russia?

This may be another form of the issue raised by FranklySpeaking, but I do not think that the redirect of Germans from Russia to this article properly belongs here. The Germans who settled in the Beresan (near Odessa) certainly are not Volga Germans. Agent 86 03:30, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

• Thinking of it for another minute, and then noticing that the redirect was set up in 2004, I decided to be bold and change the redirect to a more suitable article, History of Germans in Russia and the Soviet Union. Not the best, but better than to this article. Agent 86 03:33, 28 July 2006 (UTC)

Germans from Russia and Volga Germans should stay separate articles. The Russian Mennonites for example are something like Germans from Russia, but only about 1 percent of them used to live in the Volga area.--Wikipeeta (talk) 23:48, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Some Argentines of Volga German descent

In Argentina, Volga Germans had settled in colonies, in some specific provinces, wich are mentioned in Spanish version. Therefore, it is not so difficult to identify who is of Volga German descent. Here there are some of them (it's not a complete list):

Andrés Klipphan (journalist), Jorge Gottau (creator of "Colecta Más por Menos", bishop of Añatuya), Gabriel Heinze (soccer player, currently in Manchester United), Enrique Fischer (better known as Pipo Pescador, houmorist, actor), Héctor Omar Hoffmann (better known as Sergio Denis, singer, actor), Raúl Daniel Schmidt (soccer player, Club Olimpo), Claudio Fernando Graf (soccer player, Club Atlético Lanús), Enrique Rau (bishop, well known for his humanitarian labour), Naty Hollmann (also known as Naty Petrosino, elected "International Woman of the Year"- 2006- by the Autonomous Region of Valle d'Aosta in Northern Italy), Carlos Kaspar (actor), Alejandro Guinder (lawyer, founder of "Festival del Folklore de Cosquín"), Juan Eduardo Esnáider (soccer player), Cristian Breitenstein (mayor of Bahía Blanca), Jorge Novak (founder of "Movimiento Ecuménico por los Derechos Humanos"), Víctor "Vity" Zwenger (soccer player), Javier Herrlein (musician, former member of group Catupecu Machu), Mauro Gerk (soccer player), Jorge Mayer (bishop of Bahía Blanca), Romina Mohr (journalist, Canal 9).--Chipppy 03:08, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

Merger with Germans from Russia

The Germans in Bessarabia and in Odessa Oblast were not Volga Germans and it is hard to see how information about them belongs in an article with this title. Is there an article Black Sea Germans? User:Fred Bauder Talk 17:51, 16 December 2010 (UTC)

File:VictoriaKanasaVolgaGermanStatue.jpg Nominated for Deletion

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Photo of Gateway Theatre/Copernicus Center is irrelevant

It may be true that there were Volga Germans who resettled in the Jefferson Park neighborhood of Chicago, but I see no reason for why the photograph of the current Copernicus Cultural and Civic Center be shown in this article. The building was originally constructed as a movie theatre in 1930 by an American firm. It later was turned into the Copernicus Center, which is in honor of the Polish community that has a very large influence and presence in the Jefferson Park neighborhood.

The building has absolutely nothing to do with Germans, whether they were from Volga or anywhere else, and including it without an explanation in this article is misleading. If someone was to select a photograph to represent the Jefferson Park neighborhood, I would suggest choosing one of the Jefferson Park Branch of the Chicago Public Library, or of the actual Jefferson Park. Although the Copernicus Center is a prominent landmark in Chicago, it just simply has nothing to do with the Volga Germans, and should be removed from this article, in my opinion. --Saukkomies ^talk 02:00, 27 September 2011 (UTC)

text misleading inconclusive and philosoviet

Deutsch speaking migrants were not settled in Russia but in territories conquered by Russian imperialism, i.e. that didn't have any native Russian population or Ukrainians. Thereby, they were the first to urbanize and develop territories, something that is not criticized when done by Anglos, and Zionist even have birthrights in Western culture. They were used by Russians to conquer Muslim territories in the grasslands of southeast Siberia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.149.128.119 (talk) 18:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

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Use of term genocide

Right now the way that the word genocide is used in the article ("leading to genocide" without much elaboration on what that entailed, why it should be categorized as a genocide, what the secondary literature has to say about this) is rather lacking. It would be ideal if someone familiar with the history of the deportation of the Volga Germans and other minorities in the USSR could work on this article. Also, academic sources should be used exclusively for these kinds of claims, not websites run by associations of Volga Germans (unless the claim is "Volga German organizations have referred to this as a genocide"). Revolution Saga (talk) 04:11, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

I have removed it because it is really pushing a POV using sources that are not good enough for the claim. The main article is population transfer in the Soviet Union and there is no consensus on the genocide label for that. Some argue deportations of Chechens, Crimean Tatars etc were genocidal but it is not NPOV to state in wikivoice that the deportation of Germans was a genocide. A similar topic is flight and expulsion of Germans (1944–1950). Mellk (talk) 13:23, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

And none of the sources are reliable. Moscow's Final Solution by D Philipp Kaiser? And who is Samuel D. Sinner? It is basically self-published sources. Mellk (talk) 13:37, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Samuel Dean Sinner (Zinner) is a PhD German Historian with expertise in holocaust and genocide studies.

Genocide is intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial, or religious group. There is no doubt the destruction to ethnic minorities occurred in the USSR, including the ethnically German. To say historians debate whether or not ethnic cleansing is genocide is probably appropriate, but to state that it is Volga German organizations who collectively refer to these events as genocide is patently false. The debate is over whether or not Stalin's ethnic cleansing led intentionally to destruction of the USSR's ethnic minorities. They were executed under false pretenses and deported into famine and unsanitary conditions, and for many of the men, forced labor camps, all of which resulted in massive casualties. To cut this out entirely when it is well-documented seems like unintentional whitewashing.

Some argue deportations of Chechens, Crimean Tatars etc were genocidal but it is not NPOV to state in wikivoice that the deportation of Germans was a genocide.

- @Mellk

Who argues that ethnic-German Russians are not included in this group? The literature overwhelmingly groups all of the ethnic minorities of USSR together.

Some of the smaller nations, such as the Volga Germans, the Crimean Tatars, and the Chechens, were subjected to genocide for their alleged collaboration with the Germans.

- (Encyclopedia of Ukraine / The Canadian Institute of Ukrainian studies, The Shevchenko Scientific Society (Sarcelles, France), The Canadian Foundation for Ukrainian studies. - Toronto : University of Toronto press, 1985 . Vol. 5 : St - Z / ed. D. H. Struk. - 1993. - 886 p.: ill. - ISBN 0-8020-3995-2 (v.5))

Allied firebombing and nuclear-bombing of German and Japanese cities, which Leo Kuper and other scholars considered to have been genocidal, are often justified on the grounds that “they started it” (that is, the German and Japanese governments launched mass bombings of civilians before the Allies did). The fate of ethnic-German civilians in Czechoslovakia, Poland, and other Central European countries at the end of the Second World War, and in its aftermath, likewise attracted little empathy until recent times – again because, when it came to mass expulsions of populations and attendant atrocities, the Germans too had “started it.”

- Genocide: A Comprehensive Introduction (textbook)

Collective sources on these issues: [1] [2] [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] [9] [10] [11] [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] 166.198.252.137 (talk) 18:11, 19 January 2023 (UTC)

Maybe the views can be mentioned but just like Allied bombing of German and Japanese cities, calling it genocide in wikivoice does not follow WP:NPOV. Although those articles don't mention any genocide claims. Only Bombing of Dresden in World War II mention it (that quote specifically) but there is a whole section on debate. Mellk (talk) 07:21, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I think we agree. 166.198.252.18 (talk) 23:18, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

Genocide and repeatedly vandalized references by Russian user

Vandal editions by user Mellk

There is no doubt that it was a genocide what was done against Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia (also known as Russia Germans). And it is a gross and outrageous violation of Wikipedia rules that all those references continue to be vandalized by the Russian user Mellk (see, for example, here and here), who already has a history of vandalizing references and creating disputes on Wikipedia after editing many articles with an ideological bias in favor of the crimes carried out by Russia.

User Mellk has been vandalizing all the references in this article, but also in Russia Germans (see, for example, here), Saratov (look how he removes the word "genocide", which is abundantly sourced, under the false accusation that such information would be an "unsourced commentary" here, then he continues "pruning" with the conscious objective of hiding the sourced information here, the Russian government forbids talk about genocide, but he hides that information against WP:COMMONSENSE here, the Russian user is not satisfied and finally removes all references in that article as well, which of course is vandalism, here) and others, in which he simply removes all the information and references that he doesn't like.

Therefore, the phenomenon of this vandalism must be treated as a whole, since it is being carried out by the same user and in more than one article that addresses the same dark chapter in history.

Genocide and the application of logical reasoning

To say that precisely the version of scholars and experts in the history of Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia is not reliable (as said user writes every time he vandalizes the references), would be like saying that to learn about the genocide of Jews you should not consult any source provided by the Jewish community, but only read the version that the Nazis admit.

It is precisely the organizations that represent the victims that have an interest in denouncing what has been done to them, while the perpetrators have an interest in hiding it. This is completely obvious and logical.

In any case, for a person to join this interest in covering up such a crime, the only thing it reveals is their ideological affinity. And also their moral quality.

Applying the criteria of the Russian user Mellk, who says that the information and testimonies provided by the organizations that gather the victims and relatives of victims of genocides is not reliable, for example, we should say that a victim of a robbery cannot report the crime to the police, since it is the thief himself who should determine if he stole or not. As you can see, this reveals a deeply cynical way of seeing reality... Or as cynical as it is interested. In any case, of course, it is the most unethical thing imaginable.

To say that ethnic Germans were decimated, deported, enslaved, that they were forbidden to speak their own language, that they were forbidden to be educated in their own language, that many had to emigrate en masse to save themselves and that so many others were killed, that today the survivors and their descendants live scattered all over the world as a result of that, but that that is not genocide, it is as absurd as describing a robbery avoiding saying the word "robbery"... For example, someone admits that a man entered someone else's home, that he took money that did not belong to him, that he did so by threatening the resident family with a firearm, but: he refuses to use the word "robbery"... Completely absurd, right? Or interested and cynical...

The genocide of Germans from Russia has been very well documented by experts from various countries who call it for what it was: a genocide.

Therefore, it is completely false to say that there is a "debate" about that term, just as the Russian user says in his vandal editions.

All the experts on the subject call it genocide, and even many books about the genocide of Germans from Russia have been written. The only one that does not call it genocide is Russia, something that is not surprising, since in the same way, Russia goes to the extreme of denying absolutely all the genocides that it carried out. But denying all these genocides seems to be one more way of provoking the victims, of re-victimizing them, of showing that an attitude can never be unabashed enough, that someone can always redouble the bet and be even more evil.

References to the genocide of Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia

It is also false to imply that the only book that has been written on the genocide of Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia is Kaiser, D. Philipp (2014). Moscow's Final Solution: The Genocide of the German-Russian Volga Colonies. ISBN 9780615157801, as implied by the Russian user Mellk, who does not mention the rest of the references that he vandalized.

Many other books and other studies have been published calling the genocide of Germans from Russia for what it was: a genocide. For example:

Sinner, Samuel D. (2000). The Open Wound: The deportation of West German Ethnic Minorities in Russia & the Soviet Union, 1915-1949 - And Beyond. ISBN 1891193082.

Also: Maier Schwerdt, Héctor (2009). Deportación a Siberia: el genocidio de los alemanes del Volga; memoria de la supresión de la República Germana del Volga en Rusia y de la deportación a Siberia de todos sus habitantes, el 28 de agosto de 1941. ISBN 9789870565536.

Also: Conquest, Robert (1974). Stalins Völkermord: Wolgadeutsche, Krimtataren, Kaukasier. ISBN 3203504855

The Journal of Genocide Research also considers the genocide of the Germans in Russia for what it was: a genocide. Examples:

Pohl, J. Otto (1 June 2000). Stalin's genocide against the "Repressed Peoples. Journal of Genocide Research. 2 (2): 267–293. doi:10.1080/713677598

Eric J. Schmaltz and Samuel D. Sinner. 'You Will Die under Ruins and Snow': The Soviet Repression of Russian Germans as a Case Study of Successful Genocide, Journal of Genocide Research (2002), 4 (3), pp. 327-356.

On the other hand, the website volgagermans.org, initially created in 2009 by Concordia University in Portland, Oregon, also calls the genocide of Germans from Russia for what it was: a genocide. See: https://www.volgagermans.org/history/genocide

In Argentina, each town also remembers the genocide of Germans from Russia, even with the presence of its mayor (See, for example, Act for the 80th anniversary of the deportation and extermination of Germans in Siberia and other regions of the USSR). It is totally absurd that the Russian user wants to make all this look like an international whim.

As you can see, the reason why absolutely all experts in the history of Volga Germans and Germans from the rest of Russia agree that what was done to Germans from Russia was genocide leaves no room for doubt: because it was indeed genocide.

The United Nations is very clear on this. In fact, the definition of genocide given by the United Nations Genocide Convention is practically a description of what was done to the Volga Germans and the Germans from the rest of Russia:

"acts committed with intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnical, racial or religious group." These five acts were: killing members of the group, causing them serious bodily or mental harm, imposing living conditions intended to destroy the group, preventing births, and forcibly transferring children out of the group. Victims are targeted because of their real or perceived membership of a group, not randomly".

Genocide of Germans started long before WWII

While it is true that the genocide carried out against Germans from Russia reached its peak in 1941 (and that this is a very representative date of hatred since it even implied the suppression of the autonomous republic of the Volga Germans), it is false that this genocide began with World War II or the invasion of Russia, and that falsehood is denounced by history experts.

On the contrary, later, WWII was used as a pretext that tried to justify all these genocidal policies that destroyed an ethnic group, because Russia was afraid of being judged.

In fact, policies aimed at destroying this ethnic group and even deportations of Germans began long before World War II:

Korn, Robert. Ungesühntes Verbrechen.

Kaiser, D. Philipp (2014). Moscow's Final Solution: The Genocide of the German-Russian Volga Colonies.

Therefore, the vandal edition of the Russian user Mellk, who tries to show that the genocidal policies against the Germans in Russia began with WWII, is completely false.

It is enough to see that at the end of the 19th century and the beginning of the 20th century, many Germans from Russia had to emigrate to Canada, the United States, Argentina and Brazil as a direct consequence of the aggressive policy of Russification imposed by the government, in addition to the killings, confiscations and even deportations. However, the vandal edition of said user suppresses those reasons, showing that the mass emigration of Germans from the Volga to the Americas would have been due to a simple "whim". This is a completely intentional concealment of history.

Of course, all those persecutions and killings worsened in the pre-revolution stage and of course also in the post-revolution stage.

Other vandal editions by user Mellk

Among other vandalized information, the Russian user insists on editing that Americans and Argentines of Volga German descent are Volga Germans themselves, which is obviously false.

That can be seen in the "Notable people of Volga German descent" section, which he repeatedly changes to "Notable Volga Germans", even though the names listed there have clear descriptions in which it can be seen that most of those people have other citizenships. In fact, of the 28 personalities listed there, only 2 were born in the Volga region. That is yet another vandalism that clearly shows user Mellk's repeated editions to be arbitrary and completely without foundation.

Regards.--Creamb (talk) 12:07, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Please familiarize yourself with WP policies first. Vandalism has a specific meaning and in this case this is a personal attack. I am not going to bother reading all of the walls of text but an IP editor recently added sources (actual scholarly sources rather than self-published books) about a debate on the label so your claim that All the experts on the subject call it genocide is bullshit, sorry. Mellk (talk) 12:18, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Also, the content I removed was all what you yourself added. For example in this edit on Saratov you add a whole paragraph just adding your own commentary without any references. This is basic. Mellk (talk) 12:20, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Precisely your actions are framed within the "malicious removal of encyclopedic content", among others, which is vandalism.

You are "not going to 'bother' reading all of the 'walls' of text"...?

So you're not serious but not even a little...

Well, if you are not serious to the point of arbitrarily undoing the legitimate edits and you think you are so special that you are not even going to "bother" reading what we the users write on the talk page, then you openly accept that you are a simple vandal/troll.

Regardless, you are still making use of falsehood: none of the authors cited by that "IP editor" denies the genocide carried out against the Germans. Quite to the contrary, those authors describe the genocide.

In addition to that, I have named several experts above, true specialists and authors of various books, and they all agree that what Russia did against the Germans was genocide.

What happens is that you are too special to "bother" to read the talk page, but you are not too special to undo the legitimate edits of the rest of the users.

Consequently, your vandal edits will be undo. And if you continue with this attitude, I will report all your malicious actions.

Regards.--Creamb (talk) 17:11, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Well considering you immediately attack me by falsely accusing me of having a history of vandalizing references and creating disputes on Wikipedia after editing many articles with an ideological bias in favor of the crimes carried out by Russia and repeatedly accusing me of vandalism, as well as making assumptions about my background, why should I bother to engage with you? You did not bother with WP:AGF and went straight to personal attacks. Now you say I am a simple vandal/troll. I have already alerted you about WP:CTOPICS so be careful not to shoot yourself in the foot. Mellk (talk) 17:23, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

And another editor who started the discussion on this said the same thing. So unless you also want to call them a troll. Mellk (talk) 17:26, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Also the mentions of genocide are still there, your unreliable self-published sources (PLEASE just read WP:SPS) were removed and your edits do not follow WP:NPOV. Mellk (talk) 17:32, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

Maria Theresa

Maria Theresa wasn't Empress of Austria and Hungary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.13.154.225 (talk) 10:49, 19 December 2022 (UTC)

Notable Volga Germans list

What is the intent of this section? Pamela Anderson was removed for having only one Volga German grandparent in reliable sources, but it looks like others listed are also only of partial Volga German descent. Should this list be pruned? The mismatch may be due to the section title change by Mellk. 166.198.252.18 (talk) 23:42, 28 January 2023 (UTC)