Talk:Votians

Map

Can we get an English map? The current map is very confusing. Where exactly are the Votes positioned on this map in adjacency with the Ingrians and Izhorians. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.206.181.191 (talk) 21:13, 9 May 2018 (UTC)

 Added a location map per request, but I feel this could be further improved. Unrelated, consider becoming a registered editor. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 21:21, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 3 September 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Votians per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS and WP:NATURAL#1. I know that it wasn't even mentioned below, but hey, as a closer I have a unique chance to supervote here. More seriously, "Votians" has ample Google Books hits, does not seem to be outdated as "Vods", and is unambiguous, so it seems to tick all the boxes. Should anyone disagree, please ping me on my talk, or just open another RM, since this one reached no consensus about the best target. No such user (talk) 14:46, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

P.S. I redirected Votes to Vote (disambiguation) as the safest option; it's an unlikely search term for "voting" so we'd better guide against potentially ambiguous links. No such user (talk) 15:07, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

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Votes → Votes (ethnic group) – WP:ASTONISH, no clear primary topic, Voting gets 4,648 views compared with only 1,043 Votes for the ethnic group. Google, Images and Books only returns the voting meaning. Either Votes should redirect to Vote (disambiguation) or redirect to Voting or be a separate DAB page. Another possibility for the target is Vote people like others in Category:Ethnic groups in Russia. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:07, 3 September 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. Jack Frost (talk) 02:01, 12 September 2021 (UTC)— Relisting. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose, although would be okay with moving to Vote people instead - but if moved so, Votes redirecting to Vote people with a hatnote would be preferred. Again, readers don't randomly pluralize things they're searching for, and it seems highly unlikely that 1/4 of the people looking at "Voting" tried to search it up with "Votes". Finally, WP:ASTONISH isn't relevant here, but that's a debate for another time. SnowFire (talk) 17:48, 3 September 2021 (UTC)

  Per WP:PLURALPT the "normal situation is that a plural redirects to its singular" and the voting meaning clearly has more long-term significance and WP:NWFCTM says "it is not our goal to astonish our readers" and WP:PRECISION says "Usually, titles should unambiguously define the topical scope of the article" which the current one doesn't since to most people "votes" is the voting meaning not the ethnic group. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:28, 5 September 2021 (UTC)

• Move to Vote people, and retarget Votes to Vote (disambiguation) as {{R from plural}} plus {{R ambig}}. Plural redirects to the singular form often attract bad links (you'd be surprised how many editors think that Bears, Eagles, Falcons, Hornets, Lions, and so on could only refer to a sports team). Such bad links take effort to monitor, degrade the encyclopedia, and give ammunition to people who have nothing better to do than find foolish things in Wikipedia. Don't give them the opportunity. Narky Blert (talk) 20:24, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
• Move to Vods per WP:NATURAL, this spelling is also used [1] [2]. 162 etc. (talk) 22:07, 3 September 2021 (UTC)
• Move to Vods per User:162 etc. The current title is too easily confused with votes as in voting. JIP | Talk 02:06, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
• Move to Vods as per above.--Ortizesp (talk) 20:24, 4 September 2021 (UTC)
• Move to (undecided) Votes (ethnic group): "Votes" is a very ubiquitous reference of voting in English, whether the tallying of "votes", or a rallying chant of the women's suffrage, i.e. "Votes for women" redirecting to suffrage article. I would not have known about the ethnic group without a hatnote, disambiguation page, or a link in related articles. Oppose Votes → Vote people due to the confusion with voting this may create, resulting in a subsequent R from move. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 19:57, 5 September 2021 (UTC) (edited 06:11, 18 September 2021 (UTC))
• Move to Votes (ethnic group) or something similar per User:Crouch, Swale. "Vods" is far less frequently used in the English language when referring to Votes. ExRat (talk) 22:12, 11 September 2021 (UTC)
• Relisting comment: There is clearly consensus that the page should be moved. However, further discussion to establish a clearer consensus regarding the destination (Vods vs Votes (ethnic group) vs Vote people vs ?) and the fate of the original page (Votes) would be helpful. --Jack Frost (talk) 02:08, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

  I have no strong feeling which of those three should be the basename; but the other two should redirect to it, being created if necessary. Narky Blert (talk) 11:45, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

  I'd probably go with either Vote people per CONSISTENT or the suggested Vods if NATURAL is satisfied. Per WP:NOGOODOPTIONS we can just pick the best one in another week if there isn't a clear consensus which to use but we have a clear consensus that the group isn't primary. I'd recommend redirecting to the DAB to avoid problems with incoming external links. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:56, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

  I agree with Crouch, Swale. NOGOODOPTIONS para 4 applies. Narky Blert (talk) 22:25, 12 September 2021 (UTC)

  As said, I'm fine with whatever destination is decided upon, except Vote people. I am firmly opposed to that destination, because it is not clear whether it refers to ballot casting, or an ethnic group, as I've stated above. If I had to pick one so that the move will go through, I would make Votes (ethnic group) the destination, unless Vods is demonstrated to be common usage; I have no idea if "Vods" could be considered a slur. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 05:30, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

  Well I guess Vote people may be too ambiguous and perhaps a RFD is needed after this RM if we don't choose that option. Crouch, Swale (talk) 17:35, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

• Comment. Other than the two examples given by 162 etc., the only other sources for the use of "Vods" in English I could find were a book called Russia by Alfred Rambaud published in 1898 and The Races of Europe by Steven Coons Carleton published in 1939. So, I'd just like to reiterate that Votes, in English, is by far the most common name. Votes is used almost universally in English when referring to the people, just as their language is called Votic. Would be foolish to assign a rarely used or archaic term to an ethno-linguistic group because of some perceived confusion by Wikipedia readers. ExRat (talk) 08:56, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

• Relisting comment: even though there has been discussion after last relist, there is still no consensus. Pinging all the involved editors: @Crouch, Swale, SnowFire, Narky Blert, 162 etc., JIP, Ortizesp, CJDOS, and ExRat. Courtesy ping to last relist-er Jack Frost. —usernamekiran (talk) 14:27, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

  No change in my vote: Support → Votes (ethnic group), Strongly oppose → Vote people. Thank you for the ping. — CJDOS, Sheridan, OR (talk) 17:11, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support some move so this title can redirect to Voting or a DAB page. I oppose Vote people as confusing, the rest are fine if supported by sources. I don't speak Finnish or Russian but I think "VUH AWE TUH" and not "VUH OWE TUH" is how this should be pronounced, so some other latinization should be preferred anyhow. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 17:01, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

  Support Votic people. Without some better evidence, I oppose "Vods". "Votic people" avoids all the confusion with the English verb "to vote", and appears accurate. Second choice is Votes (ethnic group), I think I am opposed to all the other proposals I have seen. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 16:34, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• Inquiry this article seems to have two English sources, and one uses "Vots" as the demonym. What are these sources used to attest that "Vote" even is the common name? User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 17:01, 21 September 2021 (UTC)

  Votes: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14], [15], [16], [17], [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], etc... ExRat (talk) 03:41, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  @ExRat: Thanks; I am convinced but it may help others if you identified 3-5 of the most high-quality sources rather than 20 sources of a mix of quality. (I can and may do so myself if you don't want to, but as it's your list I figure I will give you the opportunity to curate it first.) User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 16:34, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

  @力: Somewhat confused. Those are all good quality sources and I'm not sure what I am supposed to curate. I was merely demonstrating that "Votes" is the most common demonym in English. ExRat (talk) 20:15, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

• Support per nom. And redirect Votes to Voting as a clear primary redirect. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:16, 22 September 2021 (UTC)
• Support Votes (ethnic group) per nom. I've never heard "Vods" before and "Vote people" is just confusing. "Votic people" is decent as well, and we already have Votic language, and I wouldn't be opposed to that either if the closer chooses it. ASUKITE 21:06, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.