Talk:Waheguru/Archive 1

Govind ji, Gobind ji

I'm going a bit on my own knowledge here, but my understanding is that Gobind and Govind are synonymous (differing transliterations), and Govinda is the Sanskrit transliteration (which keeps the final 'a' now dropped in Punjabi and Hindi). In doesn't however refer to Govinda in terms of Hindu tradition (i.e. Krishna) but to God as a single entity.

ਗੋਵਿੰਦ - "Gōvinda"

ਗੋਬਿੰਦ - "Gōbinda"

Both terms are used in the Guru Granth Sahib numerous times (and with alternative endings). Hope that helps! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 02:22, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

Uhmm, better expand on this. I *think* Gobind as the 'G' in Waheguru refers to Krishna not in terms of Hindu tradition, but as an alternative name for god (just like Hari, Allah, Raam etc are used). However, I'm not certain of this and it probably needs someone with more expertise to answer it. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 02:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

But followers of Gaudiya Vaishnavism do consider Krishna to be Vaheguru as a single entity. The same goes with Vaishnavism which considers Vishnu to mean God as a single entity, with Hari being the name of Vishnu and Krishna His avatar.

Raj2004 01:11, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

If Hari is a name of God in Sikhism, then it's likely Gobind is reference to Govinda. I am not sure.

Raj2004 16:30, 18 February 2006 (UTC)

Here is a translation of the end of Bhai Gurdas Ji's first vaar: Vaheguru is Krishna.

In Satyug, Visnu in the form of Vasudev is said to have incarnated and ‘V’ Of Vahiguru reminds of Visnu.

The true Guru of dvapar is said to be Harikrisna and ‘H’ of Vahiguru reminds of Hari.

In the the treta was Ram and ‘R’ of Vahiguru tells that rembering Ram will produce joy and happiness.

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Gobind recited.

The recitations of all the four ages subsume in Panchayan i.e. in the soul of the common man.

When joining four letters Vahiguru is remembered,

The jiv merges again in its origin.

Gobind refers to the Gurus (all ten of them, since they had the same "jot")

In its original form it is written as ਗੋਬਿੰਦ - "Gōbind"

--Jghuman2 00:41, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting. I checked up on this on SearchGurbani.com [1]. This is the exact Gurmukhi replication:

ਸਤਿਜੁਗ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਵਾਸਦੇਵ ਵਾਵਾ ਵਿਸ਼ਨਾ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਾਵੈ॥

ਦੁਆਪਰ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਹਰੀਕ੍ਰਿਸ਼ਨ ਹਾਹਾ ਹਰਿ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਵੈ॥

ਤ੍ਰੇਤੇ ਸਤਿਗੁਰ ਰਾਮ ਜੀ ਰਾਰਾ ਰਾਮ ਜਪੇ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਵੈ॥

ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਬਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਨਾਮ ਜਪਾਵੈ॥

ਚਾਰੇ ਜਾਗੇ ਚਹੁ ਜੁਗੀ ਪੰਚਾਇਣ ਵਿਚ ਜਾਇ ਸਮਾਵੈ॥

ਚਾਰੋਂ ਅਛਰ ਇਕ ਕਰ ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂ ਜਪ ਮੰਤ੍ਰ ਜਪਾਵੈ॥

ਜਹਾਂ ਤੇ ਉਪਜਿਆ ਫਿਰ ਤਹਾਂ ਸਮਾਵੈ ॥੪੯॥੧॥

I still wonder however, why Bhai Gurdas made the distinction between ਗੋਬਿੰਦ "Gōbind[a]" and ਗੋਵਿੰਦ "Gōvind[a]"? Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 01:16, 21 February 2006 (UTC)

Looking at the original, Jghuman2, you have deliberately changed:

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Govind recited.

to:

In kalijug, Gobind is in the form of Nanak and ‘G’ of Vahiguru gets Gobind recited.

The distinction between Gobind and Govind is vital there. Raj, you are correct. The original refers to Govinda as in God. Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 13:03, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

Right, something I totally didn't pick up on before, but as these are Bhai Gurdas' Varan, how can they make a reference to Guru Gobind Singh? Bhai Gurdas died before Guru Gobind Singh was even born! Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 00:26, 29 July 2006 (UTC)

'The words in the Waheguru definitely does not refer Vishnu, Krishna or Guru Nanak Dev ji. I believe that the replications above are incorrect and misleading.Italic text

Guru Granth Sahib views on Hindu Gods:Italic text Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva stand at His Door; they serve the unseen, infinite Lord (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1022).

Everyone must serve the One Lord, who created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. O Nanak, the One True Lord is permanent and stable. He neither dies, nor does He take birth (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1130).

The performance of countless millions of other devotions is not even equal to one devotion to the Name of God (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1163).

Even Brahma and his sons sing God's Praises; Sukdayv and Prahlaad sing His praises as well (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 1224).

He created air, water, fire, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 504).

Those who serve Shiva and Brahma do not find Salvation.Italic text The Fearless, Formless Lord is invisible; He reveals Himself only to the Gurmukh (Guru's follower). United with God, one does not suffer from sorrow or separation; he becomes stable in the world (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 516).

He created Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva; they act according to His will (Guru Granth Sahib Ji, 948).

They consider that Shiva is God. They are unaware of the Supreme Primal Lord (Benti Chaupai Sahib, Pauree 16).

By the order of God, Brahma obtained a body. By the order of God, Shiva was born. By the order of God, Vishnu was born. Everything is created by God (Benti Chaupai Sahib, Pauree 7).

God, who made Shiva a yogi. God, who gave Brahma the kingdom of Vedas. God, who has shaped the entire universe. Is the one we salute (Benti Chaupai Sahib, Pauree 8).

• • • Guru Gobind Singh ji in Dasam Granth wrote somthing about Hindu devtas:

Bhujang Prayat Chhand He created sweat-born creatures, placental mammals and earth-born vegetable kingdom. He produced egg-born creatures and thus composed all the continents and the Universes. He created directions and semi-directions (corners), the earth and the sky. He narrated four Vedas, the Koran and the Puranas.(24). He made the night and the day and installed the sun and the moon. He created demigods and demons and produced numerous warriors. He prepared the tablet and pen of divine decrees and recorded the writ of destiny on the forehead of all. He has subjugated all with his mighty and deadly hands.(25). The Immortal Lord erased many, He created and made many. He uprooted and forged many, again He destroyed and produced them None can comprehend the operations of the Lord of Destruction. It shall happen to the multitude and it has happened to the populace in the past.(26) He created millions of trivial Krishnas. He destroyed many Ramas and then produced them. Many Mohammeds existed on this earth. As and when the time of their doom drew near, all of them perished.(27) All the holy saints (Muslim) and prophets who existed in the past; They were conquered by Death but they could not defeat the Lord of Death. All the incarnations of Vishnu like Rama and Krishna were originated, They were consumed by Death but they could not destroy Death.(28.) As many Indras and moons have come into being, All of them were devoured by Kal (death) but they could not annihilate Kal. All Muslim saints, prophets and gauses (Muslim sect of saints) who existed, Were ultimately crushed by the jaws of death.(29) All the kings like Mandhata, who were blessed with glory; Were bound by Kal (Death) and were detained behind bars. But those who have remembered His Name, have been redeemed by Him. Without securing His shelter, millions of beings who are exterminated, can be seen.(30)

More Views of Guru Gobind Singh ji on Hindu Deities: The Vedas and the Semitic texts have not been able to unravel His mystery; all the Siddhas are tired of contemplating on Him. The Simrities, the Shastras, the Vedas and the Puranas have all given consideration to multifarious ideologies.

“Some firmly fasten the idol (of Vishnu) to their neck and some call Shiva their God. Some say God is in the Hindu temple and others consider His abode in the Muslim Mosque.

Some call Him (God) Rama, others Krishna and some identify Him in their hearts with other incarnations. I have abandoned all such fake religions and I accept that only God is the creator of living beings.(12)

If you call Rama to be absolutely unconceived and unborn, how could He be born of Kaushalia’s womb? If you call Krishna the Immortal Being, why was he subject to death?

If Krishna was called the apostle of peace and devoid of enmity, then what compelled him to drive the chariot of Arjuna ? Recognize Him as your Sole Master whose mystery none has revealed and none will be able to reveal.(13)

You identify Krishna as the Ocean of mercy, why did the hunter shoot an arrow at him? One who rescues the dynasties of others, why did he get his own dynasty annihilated?

One who is deemed as unconceived since the beginning, how did he enter into the womb of Devki ? One who has neither father, nor mother, how could Vasudeva be termed as his father ?(14)

Why do you call Shiva your Master? Why do you describe Brahma as your Supreme Spirit? The lord of the Raghuvansh (Rama), the chieftain of the Yadavas (Krishna), Rama’s spouse (Vishnu) whom you consider as lords of the universe, were not God.

Discarding the One God, you worship many. Likewise Sukhdev, Prashar and Vyas were proven false due to pantheism. All have established hollow religions. I believe in One God who reveals Himself in many modes.(15)

Some worship Brahma as God, others look upon Shiva as their Lord. Some describe Vishnu as the Lord of the world and coerce others to worship him as by doing so all the sins are eliminated.

Consider this a thousand times, O fool! in the end all these (deities) will abandon you. Contemplate Him in your mind, who was, now is and shall ever be in future.(16)

He made millions of Indras. He made and destroyed myriads of Vaman Incarnations. He created demons, gods, Sheshnaga, mountains, birds and beasts, who are beyond count.

Shiva and Brahma have been doing penances to this day but could not find His limits. My Guru has told me of the Supreme Lord whose mystery is not fathomed by the Vedas and the Semitic texts.(17)”

(Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth – 1544) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:81:4200:3300:DCE4:480A:B153:8121 (talk) 19:08, 4 May 2016 (UTC)

The term used is Govind and NOT Gobind!! Check original Gurmukhi text:ਕਲਿਜੁਗਿ ਨਾਨਕ ਗੁਰ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਗਗਾ ਗੋਵਿੰਦ ਨਾਮੁ ਅਲਾਵੈ। Gobind and Govind are synonymous!! Here it does not mean Guru Gobind Singh ji as he was born after this text was composed! Govind is a Sanskrit term derived from words Go and Vinda!! Go means Earth and Vinda means Protector!! It means Protector of Earth!! Since God saved Earth through his various forms like Krishna!! Even Namdevand Kabir has mentioned this word Gur Govind!! RajShah1857 (talk) 18:50, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

go-vinda means "one who finds cows". All other "meanings" are folk etymology. And the tradition is to use modern Punjabi spellings for Sikh gurus. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:05, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Hinduism uses words like Govinda Rama Hari in two contexts: 1. Nirgun God who takes form of Avatar! 2. Only Sargun or Saakar form So wherever, apparent criticism or rejection of Hindu devi devatas appear it means only in the 2nd context!! Same concept is used in Hindu scriptures! Shiva Purana would apparently reject Krishna (meaning Sargun only form) but label Shiva as supreme!! The vice versa applies for Vishnu or Bhagvat Purana!! Similar for Devi Purana!! Upanishads can collectively reject all Sargun forms or at times acceot them as one!! Krishna here has same meaninng as in this line of Gurbani: ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ एक क्रिसनं सरब देवा देव देवा त आतमा ॥ Ėk krisanʼn sarab ḏevā ḏev ḏevā ṯa āṯmā. The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ आतमा बासुदेवस्यि जे को जाणै भेउ ॥ Āṯmā bāsḏevsi▫y je ko jāṇai bẖe▫o. One who understands the mystery of all-pervading Lord; RajShah1857 (talk) 19:01, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Same God?

say, is Waheguru the same god as Allah/Jah/Jehovah/Ahura Mazda/Yahweh that we Abrahamic Monothiests Worship? -Mirza Al-Mahdi

Sikhs believe there is only one God, known and worshipped in many religions. If these religions believe in there being only one God, then yes, it would be the same God - known by different names of course. Incidentally, the Sikh holy book does have references to god using the word Allah, Khuda and maybe other Islamic names. There are of course, many Hindu names employed for God too (which occur far more frequently than either Islamic names or Waheguru itself!).

Here's a good quote for you:

ਕੋਈ ਬੋਲੈ ਰਾਮ ਰਾਮ ਕੋਈ ਖੁਦਾਇ ॥

kōī bōlai rām rām kōī khudāi

Some call Him, 'Raam, Raam', and some call Him, 'Khuda'.

Gurū Arjun Dēv - Śrī Gurū Granth Sāhib Page 885

Sukh | ਸੁਖ | Talk 22:31, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks My Beloved Friend.It seems Sikhism is a True Religion. -Mirza Al-Mahdi

Both Sikhism and Hinduism beleieve that Allah/ Yehovah/ Ram/ Krishna/ Shiva/ Waheguru/ Kartar are names of One lord only!! Upanishads says: Ekam sat Vipra bahuda vadanti! meaning There is one true God, eduacted or wise people know it by many names or ways!! Hinduism and Gurbani can use word Ram Krishna and Shiva for Only Sargun form OR Both Sargun + Nirgun God!! When used only for Sargun only form it will be apparently criticised!! RajShah1857 (talk) 19:08, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I suggest you stop preaching here. — kashmīrī ^TALK 22:07, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Reliable Source

would someone explain, what constitutes this [2] to be treated as a reliable source.] WP:RS Ajjay (talk) 06:18, 31 March 2008 (UTC)

Why don't you clarify "same God" on the main page itself?

Dear Author,

Why don't you put the following verse from Sri Guru Granth Sahib

Koi Bole Ram Ram, Koi Khuda

Koi Seve Gosain, Koi Allah

on the main page itself, so that nothing is left to doubt in the mind of the reader.

I see you have used these lines above to respond to one of the questions above. It would be good to mention this on the main page itself, to show that all are the same : Ram, Pritam, Madhow, KHUDA, ALLAH, etc etc.

Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 128.111.185.109 (talk) 19:37, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding Patanjali claim

I asked at the Reliable source noticeboard of Wikipedia whether this website is a reliable source or not. I am placing a link to reponse regarding the reliability of the source.[3]

Besides the editors who created this page have placed four or five books from where they adapted this article. Nowhere in these books is mentioned this claim.Mahaakaal (talk) 11:48, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

No! The website in question is not a reliable source. [4].--Singh6 (talk) 14:59, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Read the first paragraph

It states that the word "WaheGuru" has its origin in the Sankskrit language, possibly the oldest language in the world. You are suggesting Nanak invented Sanskrit, Nanak appeared in medieval India, Sanskrit pre-dates Nanak by several Millenia. Your not even applying common sense.

Whom are you talking to? 202.54.176.51 (talk) 06:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Patanjali and wahguru

Did patanjali speak gurmukhi or punjabi. How could he use this word, which was first used by Nanak. Is there a reliable source that contains the passage where Patanjali uses this term? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.96.129.115 (talk) 12:50, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

This claim is bullshit. There is no Waheguru in any Sanskrit work composed by Patanjali. Waheuguru is a Punjabi word. Punjabi is derived from Sanskrit thorugh Saurseni Prakrit. But it is not same as Punjabi. 202.54.176.51 (talk) 06:36, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

ਏਕ ਕ੍ਰਿਸਨੰ ਸਰਬ ਦੇਵਾ ਦੇਵ ਦੇਵਾ ਤ ਆਤਮਾ ॥ एक क्रिसनं सरब देवा देव देवा त आतमा ॥ Ėk krisanʼn sarab ḏevā ḏev ḏevā ṯa āṯmā. The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

ਆਤਮਾ ਬਾਸੁਦੇਵਸ੍ਯ੍ਯਿ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਜਾਣੈ ਭੇਉ ॥ आतमा बासुदेवस्यि जे को जाणै भेउ ॥ Āṯmā bāsḏevsi▫y je ko jāṇai bẖe▫o. One who understands the mystery of all-pervading Lord

Gurbani apparently seems to have both critical and aporeciating view of dieties!! Similar is the case with Hindu Puranas!! 1. When "Sargun only" form is used it is criticised 2. When used in context as "Nirgun form indicating Sargun aspect" is referred its appreciated!! RajShah1857 (talk) 19:17, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Origin, or First-Use of the word Waheguru

It's referenced as originating with Guru Nanak Dev Ji, M1. However, reading these: http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Bhatt_Gayand, http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Bhatt_Gayand it appears to be first used afterwards. Any idea how to confirm either view? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.227.178.158 (talk) 04:40, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

Well the term may be coined anytime!! How Sikh texts define themsleves have been described here!! Its exact quote from their own religious scriptures!! RajShah1857 (talk) 19:12, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Meanig of Waheguru Ji ka Khalsa Waheguru ji ki fateh

As sikhiwiki.com states the meanig of the salutation is:

Khalsa belongs to Vahiguru; Victory is gifted by Vahiguru The translation on the Wikipedia page says: Waheguru Ji Ka Khalsa, Waheguru Ji Ki Fateh Wonderful Teacher's Khalsa, Victory is to the Wonderful Teacher. this translation is wrong. it should be: The almighty Lord's Khalsa, Victory is to the almighty Lord. so therefore i have changed it — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yuvpsi (talk • contribs) 19:48, 24 May 2012 (UTC)

Fact: Single Word 'Wahiguru' is no where there in Gurbani

" any text not included in Gurbani is False"

" THY true name is TRUTH all other names are False"

....so says Gurbani

The entire discussion is worth nothing

" do not do things which need not be done"

....so says Gurbani

-Writer Engr Col Rajender Singh Nirvair Khalsa