Talk:Walter Payton

Early discussion

I am unaware how to proceed with this, but I do think it is notable that Payton was supported for much of his career by a team that ranked very low offensively in nearly all categories. There's a famous photo in the Football Hall of Fame in Canton, Ohio where Payton is receiving the ball from quarterback Bob Avelini, and is already surrounded by a wide ring of defenders. 68.66.15.67 06:44, 16 September 2005 (UTC)Matthew Klein

Possible Copyvio....but not too sure

It seems that quite a bit of text from this site http://www.kopete.org/walter-payton.html was used on the wikipedia page, or vice versa. I'm not familiar with the other site, does anyone know which was around first? 4.225.23.168 05:58, 7 February 2006 (UTC)

Nope, it's a wikipedia mirror site --172.140.242.178 03:58, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Failed Good Article Status

This article is insufficiently referenced as so I declined it for good article status. joturner 04:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)

Internal Inconsistency

Reading the article, I was struck by the fact that it says both that Payton's strong leg muscles caused his idiosyncratic gait and that his gait was the result of a desire to avoid injury (with the gait in turn causing him to strengthen his leg muscles).

Seeing as no one is bothering to clean up the article, I'll begin my work sometime tommorow. --ShadowJester07 04:30, 19 August 2006 (UTC)

Awkward...

Could somebody change this passage: "Living with unbearable pain, Walter continued to live his life the way he wanted to live it" to something more elegant? Mrbluesky 16:08, 1 August 2006 (UTC)

Heavy breathing

The article's good, but the descriptors are really breathy. The florid language subtracted from my overarching consciousness of the wordage.

On a fateful spring afternoon a plethora of losing seasons The Chicagoland area had never witnessed such an star-studded performance where he amazed football fanatics with sublime performance The Bears exploded into the 1985 NFL season conjured a sublime 15-1 record managed to voraciously conquer an epic battle

They make the overall article seem much less objective than it otherwise might read.

Er, Sorry,I was rather new when I wrote this WP article, I'll fix those mistakes. --ShadowJester07 04:46, 10 October 2006 (UTC)

GA drive

Can't tell you how happy it makes me to find this article hasn't yet made GA, because it's enjoyable work for me. Question for someone knowledgeable about image rights; if our family has an autographed photo of Walter in action, purchased from the foundation, could that be used here? Novickas 20:04, 14 October 2007 (UTC)

Citing References

Having watched American football for over 30 years, I certainly remember and complete agree with the description of Walter Payton's gameplay as described in this article. I fondly remember his ability to go around, go over, go under, or go through just about any defender and in some cases, all on the same play. I don't see how one's personna or gameplay can be treated as a verifiable fact one could reference from text, although I'm sure there are countless videos and highlight films of it. How does one treat something that was certainly seen by millions on TV every Sunday afternoon for over a decade as unveriable or uncited just because its not in text form?

Buggsbuny 01:10, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

While the content may infact be true, see WP:Verify, WP:original research, WP:reliable sources --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  01:12, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

In response to your latter statement - technically yes, since anything could interpret Payton's play or make up information that many not be true. Please see the aforementioned Wikipedia Links. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  01:40, 6 February 2007 (UTC)

need more info

u really need moreinfo on this page becuse alot of people want to no want walter payton's rookie stats and career stats areu really need moreinfo on this page becuse alot of people want to no want walter payton's rookie stats and career stats are and more of his early life such as what hospital he was born at if any, what education he got such as elemntry. his strengths and weaknesses at school, his goals and did he accplish them... —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 12.25.245.226 (talk • contribs) 2007 February 21.

Thanks for the comment. Like all of Wikipedia, the article is a work in progress and its coverage will improve in the future (you can help). Wikipedia is never going to be a good source for sports statistics, though. I suggest that you take a look at the article's external links, databaseFootball and Pro Football Reference. ×Meegs 20:43, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Ummm, all the information you requested is already present in the Article. See Beginning and Career Statistics. Hope that helps --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  23:17, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

Contribution

Hi all, congratulations for the great work so far! However while reading the article I felt something very important in the life of Walter Payton could be given a larger place: his involvement in charity and the role of his foundation. I am a Bears fan and obviously appreciates to its fullest all his accomplishments on the field. But it really struck me (and would undoubtedly struck you if you read his autobiography "Never Die Easy") to learn about his overall legacy off the field. I believe it should show when discussing about Walter Payton. If any of you agree with this, then I would certainly volunteer to contribute on these subjects. Let me know. Sebfau 23:04, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the input, we appreciate it. Feel free to add information about Payton, just be sure to properly Cite the information according to WP:CS (Citing sources is very important). Please expand the legacy section, since Payton has played a significant role in shaping the mentalites and playing styles of many modern running backs like Ladainian Tomlinson --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  23:14, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

Reference style

I'm going to convert the referencing to a manual format, if anyone disagrees please let me know. I'll wait a while before doing so to see what if someone objects. Quadzilla99 13:59, 15 May 2007 (UTC)

Eh nevermind, I was going to change in the refs advance of a big expansion and re-write of the article, but I saw how bad the Sugar Ray Robinson article was and have been laboring on that one. This one's on the back burner for now. Quadzilla99 20:14, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Give us a heads up when you finish working with Sugar Ray article. I've made a few edits to get this page up so it meets WP's main principles, but it could use some more work to reach GA or perhaps even FA status. --  ShadowJester07  ►Talk  21:03, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Good article nomination

GA review (see here for criteria)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

• Yes, this was a very good candidate. I read through it twice and could not find any major faults with it. It is well written, well structured and well referenced. My only issue is the lack of free-use images but given the circumstances, it is understandable. The fair-use images provide adequate licensing and rationales so i see no issue here. Well done. Woodym555 18:37, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

broken ref

Reference 16 (http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4155/is_19991102/ai_n13843702) goes to a "this article doesn't exist" page. --fvw* 15:47, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Heisman

According to Heisman.com, the people who give out the Heisman, Payton never finished in the top 10 for the award in any year he played. http://www.heisman.com/winners/j-cappelletti73.html http://www.heisman.com/winners/a-griffin74.html . Here's an article from Espn http://espn.go.com/classic/biography/s/Payton_Walter.html that says "Though Payton, a jewel in the small-college rough, didn't come close to winning the award, he was the first running back selected (No. 4 overall) in the 1975 draft." which may have led to the confusion in the cnnsi article. No. 4 overall refers to his draft pick not the Heisman. That article does say he did get some consideration before the season and that New York columnist Dick Young predicted he'd win but he "didn't come close." —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.40.1.251 (talk) 05:19, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Cancer?!?

I'd like to get consensus to remove the "cancer deaths" categories, as the categorization is factually inaccurate. Peyton's disease was not cancer and, although it can in some rare cases be associated with cancer, it isn't usually. This peer-reviewed emedicine.com article [1] states that the cause of PSC is unknown but that it's usually associated with inflammatory bowel disease, Crohn's disease, and certain viruses (CMV, especially). He had liver disease, not liver cancer. There's a difference, and miscategorizing Peyton's death could confuse someone who was searching for information on this disease and who found this page. --NellieBly (talk) 03:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think it's a miscategorization. I found several articles that indicate Payton's death was indeed due to "bile duct cancer that was discovered during his treatment...for primary sclerosing cholangitis":

• CNN/Sports Illustrated
• Walter Payton Cancer Fund

--Esk (talk) 07:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)

Date of Birth?

According to Jeff Pearlman's "Sweetness", Walter was actually born in 1953. Any way to verify this? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.159.128.200 (talk) 03:23, 20 November 2011 (UTC)

And according to his brother's book, "Walter & Me", he was 46 when he died as well. I would think his brother would know for sure. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.119.210.223 (talk) 00:28, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

I've corrected this. Perlman's book has been found to be well researched, I've made some additions to the article based on the book which appears to clearly be the most researched biography of Payton. --WGFinley (talk) 03:03, 10 October 2014 (UTC)

• And, someone's changed it again, please discuss if you have issue with his birth year, but this is well sourced. --WGFinley (talk) 04:07, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

There is still an edit war going on here. The NFL says 1954. The latest version that has been changed to leaves the old source and just changes the date. Please come to an agreement here before changing the dates. -- GB fan 18:23, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I was one of the people who changed his birthdate to 1953 because of Jeff Perlman's book and I am convinced he was born in 1953. However, I accept GB fan's rationale that the arbiter on this point should be the NFL (low as its credibility is these days) or else Wiki will just reflect people's faith in a single, unofficial source (well-informed as that source may be). — Preceding unsigned comment added by WikiHead31 (talk • contribs) 18:36, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

I've confirmed with the Social Security Death Index that Payton's date of birth is in fact 1953. Using SSDI would be a primary source and thus not allowed, Perlman's book is a secondary source that the primary source bears out as accurate. I'm changing the date of birth to 1953. --WGFinley (talk) 19:19, 1 November 2015 (UTC)

If you want people to stop changing it, try citing a free source instead. Of course it's gonna be changed when the overwhelming majority of free-access sources out there state 1954 as his birth date. So much so that anything else at this time is a borderline fringe theory. Lizard (talk) 00:16, 26 July 2016 (UTC)

This topic does not seem to go away. While I'm not saying it's false that Payton was born 1953, all the reliable sources we use, NFL.com, ChicagoBears.com, Chicago Tribune, ESPN, PFR, all say he was born in 1954. Wikipedia places an emphasis on Verifiability, not truth, meaning content needs to be backed by a source that is deemed reliable source. As a previous commenter pointed out, SSDI is a primary source. Wikipedia:Identifying and using primary sources states, "Many other primary sources, including birth certificates, the Social Security Death Index, and court documents, are usually not acceptable primary sources, because it is impossible for the viewer to know whether the person listed on the document is the notable subject rather than another person who happens to have the same name." Again, I'm not saying the claim that Payton being born in 1953 is completely fabricated, but we would need something more than SSDI or a single claim from one author. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  13:49, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

As a competent genealogist, I must respectfully disagree with StarScream1007 (and possibly Wikipedia) on the use of the Social Security Death Index as an acceptable primary source. In a majority of cases it is possible to be certain that a researcher has the correct record. If you search the SSDI for "Walter Peyton", born 1954 ± 2 years in Mississippi, died 1999 ± 1 year, it returns just six entries, only one of which is named "Walter Peyton"; the others are Douglas W. Peyton, Rodger W. Patton, David W. Patton, Jay W. Patton, and Floyd W. Patton. The full record is:

Name: Walter J. Payton

SSN: 587-84-5026

Birth Date: 25 Jul 1953

Issue Year: 1969 (date SSN issued)

Issue State: Mississippi

Death Date: 1 Nov 1999

A related database, the Social Security Applications and Claims Index, has essentially the same information, with the addition of:

Gender: Male

Race: Black

Birth Place: Columbia, Mississippi

Notes:

May 1969: Name listed as WALTER JERRY PAYTON

11 Nov 1999: Name listed as WALTER J PAYTON

Additionally, Find a Grave's entry is locked to outside changes, and contains:

BIRTH: 25 Jul 1953; Columbia, Marion County, Mississippi, USA

DEATH: 1 Nov 1999 (aged 46); South Barrington, Cook County, Illinois, USA

In genealogy, the first two records are considered proof that this is the correct person; the Find a Grave record is a secondary source and would be used just for confirmation. KLinch (talk) 06:04, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Hagiography...

Can a search for 'hagiography' be set up to redirect to this article? I think that will help people to understand the concept. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 23.241.184.183 (talk) 10:48, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

Problem addressed by today's edit. Tapered (talk) 00:15, 14 August 2014 (UTC)

I should think this goes without saying. Walter Payton did not have 2,973 rushing attempts in the post season. That would be some kind of spectacular record. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.35.229.187 (talk) 00:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Walter Payton/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Needs references and inline citations; remedy article so {{noncompliant}} tag can be removed plange 00:30, 30 July 2006 (UTC)

Last edited at 00:37, 30 July 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 10:11, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

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picture with face ?

any usable pictures of this football legend on the net that shows his face ? sure would help the article IMHO. JMO. Gizziiusa (talk) 15:47, 27 October 2018 (UTC)gizziiusa

That is a good idea. However all pictures need to be free and non-commercial. Oddly, this article used to have a picture of Payton's face that was non-free but claimed under fair-use as Payton is dead and thus any picture of nigh irrepetible. That got nullified by a free picture that was added. I'm sure someone has a picture they took of Payton squirreled away somewhere that could be scanned and uploaded. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  16:06, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

DOB

Was he born in 1953 as some claims have stated? Since this is debated, should we put "1953 or 1954" as it is disputed? https://www.cfbhall.com/about/blog/walter-payton/ https://chicagoaudible.com/ticbh-july-25-walter-payton-born/ https://www.chicagonow.com/chicago-bears-huddle/2011/11/reviewing-sweetness-the-enigmatic-life-of-walter-payton/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.231.40.122 (talk) 18:05, 4 October 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for sharing these links. We may need a note about his age, similar to articles with Age controversies, like John Lee Hooker or Laura Branigan. --  StarScream1007  ►Talk  00:12, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

Please see previous discussion under Date of Birth? above... KLinch (talk) 06:08, 13 December 2021 (UTC)