Talk:Warnborough College/Archive 2

The relationship between the two schools

We know that they are separate legal entities because each was separately incorporated. The sources we cite say that. In a hurry right now. More later. TimidGuy 11:40, 5 September 2007 (UTC)

Firstly I am new to Wikipedia, so apologies if my entry looks like a newbie. I support the motion to merge both Warnborough College and University entries. The main reason is that while they are seemingly different entities, they are in fact one and the same, a quick look at the Limited Company structure in Ireland and UK proves this conclusively. The whole set up is run from the Canterbury property, the base in Ireland is a convenience type address only. Furthermore, a University to be legal in UK it has to have a Royal (UK)Charter to issue degrees, it is prefectly evident that the Warnborough does not possess a charter. They do fulfil the requirements in Ireland for owners of a Limited Company incorporated in Ireland under Irish Company law, but this is is not a Degree Issuing Charter. The phrase 'Degree Mill' refers to those institutions who offer 'life degrees' etc., the Warnborouh offers students degree courses that look and feel like the real thing. In fact if you wanted to learn a particular subject then maybe these courses are ideal even if they are a tad expensive when you consider the degree is not something you can rely upon to be accepted. I have a lot more knowledge about the Warnborough and so am not Neutral in this. I would like prospective students to be aware of the Warnborough's status so as to be able to make an enlightened decision where to get the biggest bang for their bucks if they wish to take a Degree by Distance learning and I fully support the motion to merge both the Warnborough College and Warnborough University entries. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Degreemill (talk • contribs) 21:00, 18 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi. Welcome to Wikipedia. And thanks for coming to the discussion page. You did well. Note that if you type four tildes at the end of your insertion on this discussion page, your username is added automatically, and your comment is given a date and time. Also, by typing a colon at the beginning, you can indent. This helps keep track of who's saying what. I added colon at the beginning of your comment to indent it.

As I understand it, a main reason for the merger is that there isn't currently a Warnborough University, which was the former name of Warnborough College Ireland. I really do need to complete this process. Most of the comment from the Warnborough University has been moved here. I just need to rewrite the last point about Texas and Oregon and move that.

The article currently states that Warnborough UK isn't authorized to grant UK degrees. But it's not as clear regarding Warnborough Ireland. We should add a sentence to the Warnborough College Ireland section regarding lack of accreditation. As always, Wikipedia requires a source for this. Do you have a good source that we can cite? TimidGuy 11:28, 19 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the kind comments and instructions, I am learning slowly.

The Warnborough people are very good at smoke and mirrors, here is information from UK companies house http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/toolsToHelp/findCompanyInfo.shtml then enter 'Warnborough' in the search box to reveal the following.....

Branch Details Branch Number: BR007583 Name, Address: WARNBOROUGH UNIVERSITY LIMITED WANBOROUGH HOUSE 8 VERNON PLACE CANTERBURY KENT CT1 3WH Date Open: 01/03/2004 Closed(Y): Y (company removed because the name 'University' is prohibited)Type of Business: ADULT AND OTHER EDUCATION

Oversea Company Info Registered at: CARDIFF on 11/05/2004 Country of Origin: Ireland

Parent Registry: REGISTER OF COMPANIES DUBLIN, IRELAND Registration Number: 264181

Governing Law: COMPANIES ACTS 1963 TO 1990 Legal Form: PRIVATE COMPANY LIMITED BY SHARES

Now we see that the Warnborough University in UK was a legal branch of the Ireland company and proves they were one and the same. however if we look at http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gbf3.shtml#appa we will see that the use of the name 'University' is not allowed and so those company names were limited by legal process.

Moving on to the evolution of Colleges following the old structure from the University companies.From Companies house (UK)http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/toolsToHelp/findCompanyInfo.shtml we see that Warnborough College have a UK Ltd company, and also one in Ireland

http://www.cro.ie/search/ and enter Warnborough to reveal Type Business Name Number 338039

Name WARNBOROUGH COLLEGE Address ALL HALLOWS COLLEGE, GRACE PARK ROAD, DRUMCONDRA,DUBLIN 9

Registered 09/07/2007 Status Normal..

I think a search into the Directors list for UK and Ireland will conclusively prove that they are all one and the same, so a merger should be possible.Degreemill 09:59, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

With regard to accreditation, this again is an example of smoke and mirrors. It has to be accepted that the 'short courses' are basically useful to students and are harmless. The degree courses are different. To find the degree courses, we have to look into the Warnborough College IE web site http://www.warnborough.ie/aboutwc/faq.htm here we see that the Warnborough College Accreditation quote "Warnborough has a long history of recognition for its programmes, the quality of its teaching, mentoring, and for the qualifications it awards. Its courses and credits have been accepted by academic institutions, the professions and industry in the USA, UK, Australia and other countries." So not much there then.

Using the little search box at the top right, we can search for accreditation, and apart from a response to Wikipedia 'lies' we see http://www.warnborough.edu/accreditation.htm

The accreditation claim is purely ISO, one would expect to see HETAC (http://www.hetac.ie/) or BAC (http://www.the-bac.org/) or perhaps Edexcel (http://www.edexcel.org.uk/home/)but we don't.

ISO 9001 (http://www.iso.org/iso/management_standards)is in essence is a certificate to prove they have passed the ISO Standards Inspection for 'good management practice'.

We can also see UKAS, http://www.ukas.com/ looking deeper we can see http://www.ukas.com/about_accreditation/accredited_bodies/default.asp and http://www.ukas.com/about_accreditation/accredited_bodies/certification_body_schedules.asp where we cannot see Warnborough listed.Degreemill 10:32, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much. Have been busy with other things, but hope to work on this article this weekend, and to add the redirect and close out the old article. TimidGuy 16:39, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

My pleasure, I will look out for any queries or further research that I maybe able to help with. Degreemill 17:35, 20 October 2007 (UTC)

Here is a list of ALL the higher education institutions in Ireland, and those who provide higher education programmes leading to awards included in the National Framework for Qualifications. Guess who is missing ?. http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/he_providers_of_higher_education_ireland.htm?language=ENDegreemill 12:05, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Buried content?

Hi, Orlady. Thanks for working on the article. I'm not sure I understand your edit summary regarding buried content. I haven't copied the content verbatim from Warnborough University because I feel strongly that article was in violation of WP:UNDUE. I'm trying very hard to address that. TimidGuy 20:02, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Well, for starters, nowhere in the article did it say that the school lacks educational accreditation. That's a pretty important fact about the place. Inclusion of the article in the "unaccredited" category doesn't substitute for putting that fundamental information in the article. Then there's the lead paragraph: "Warnborough College U.K. and Warnborough College Ireland focus on distance education programs, and share a faculty, many of whom are part-time." The current lead paragraph doesn't come close to meeting the criteria Wikipedia:Lead section. It doesn't say that these are "higher education" institutions, it doesn't mention that they are unaccredited, it doesn't say where they are located, and it doesn't mention the history of controversy around the Warnborough Colleges. Additionally, use of inline reference citations (in the format [2]) as the only call-outs for sources providing negative information about the school had the effect of excluding the titles and other details of those sources from the reference list. The overall effect was to create a whitewash of an institution whose chief claim to notability is its history of controversy and legal battles. This is not a matter of maintaining a neutral point of view regarding a matter of opinion; it's burying factual information and focusing on self-promotional material from Warnborough.--Orlady 20:30, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

Please see the thread above. Was going to add the Warnborough Irelande accreditation point next. DegreeMill found a great source. The article clearly states that Warnborough UK lacks accreditation. Yes, you're right. Need to add some to lead. But I don't agree that lack of accreditation should be there. Many reputable schools lack accreditation. I graduated from one, which later became accredited. I went on to get an MA and PhD from an accredited school, having received excellent education at a school that wasn't accredited. It unfairly skews the article to put that in the lead. I'm adding references to former students -- these are highly successful people, who have graduate degrees from schools besides Warnborough. They must feel that they received a good education at Warnborough, because they are eager to list it in their credentials. I don't think I reverted your changes to the refs.

Thanks so much for discussing. I'm confident that we'll both be satisfied with the outcome. TimidGuy 20:37, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

It's good to hear that you had plans to continue editing this article. However, it's more than 2 months since you let it be known that you were working on it, essentially asking others to leave it alone while you worked. It seems to me that it's time to "let" others get involved again. --Orlady 00:16, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Another note: this school has a 30-year history, and for most of that history was not controversial, with many satisfied former students. No problem mentioning the controversy, but that shouldn't be given undue weight. I'm sure we can agree on the right balance. TimidGuy 20:43, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

If it's true that the school has mostly been uncontroversial, with many satisfied students, I would think that there would be some positive information available from sources unaffiliated with the institution. The most positive unaffiliated websites I can find are a few alumni resumes that name hte school (which you cited) and http://www.ashantifriendship.com/admin/index.htm -- that page lists Dr. Brenden Tempest-Mogg, Warnborough College, Canterbury, and Dr. Daryl Tempest-Mogg, as "Education Advisors" to The Society Of the Friends of Abuohia, Ashanti. I repeat: If not for the history of controversy, I believe this school would not be sufficiently notable to qualify for an article. --Orlady 00:13, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Also, just wanted to point out that I can't be accused of burying content because I'm the one who's added some of the most damning sources: the Seattle Times article, New York Times article, and U.S. Department of Education punitive action. TimidGuy 21:41, 21 October 2007 (UTC)

I agree that the article should cover every possible viewpoint as possible, however the Warnborough, taking the University or College as a single entity, attract controversy simply because of their chequered past. There are in fact many Warnborough students who were happy with their course whether it was a short course or a degree course. However if the US Department of Education action http://www.ed-oha.org/cases/1995-164st.html is considered carefully it is fairly evident that the Warnborough is not able to grant degrees in 1995 and this obviously remains the situation today. We can also see that the Warnborough tried to make use of the Greenwich College as the degree granting authority. Also they made reference to a Tourism Certificate recognised by the Oxford University. The Warnborough were found to be guilty of misrepresentation of its course to 15 students. It would be interesting to develop where the District of Columbia State Education Office lies with the Warnborough for the period after 1998.

Where the Warnborough and Oxford are concerned then this article seems fairly succinct http://www.iht.com/articles/1995/10/17/oxford.t.php

In 2004 they had a local difficulty in China http://education.guardian.co.uk/students/news/story/0,12891,1151754,00.html and http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/02/19/nchina19.xml&sSheet=/news/2004/02/19/ixnewstop.html and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/oxfordshire/3503891.stm how can this occurence be presumed in the light of other controversies?

The plain fact is this and there is no way one can be totally neutral over this, the Warnborough do not have the necessary Degree Granting Authority and their degree courses are not recognised by any official body. To balance the statement above they could apply to the Privy Council in UK http://www.privy-council.org.uk/output/Page27.asp for a University Charter or they could apply for individual course accreditation and post the a statement to that fact on their web site, prospective students could then check, with that authority, the voracity of the statement and proceed with confidence. Right now it is a case of caveat emptor for prospective students and that fact I really find terribly dissappointing for students.Degreemill 08:02, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Degreemill and Orlady. It feels like we're proceeding toward NPOV wthout too much edit warring. I'd like there to be no edit warring at all and to focus on our common goal of an accurate article that's in accord with WP:NPOV, especially the issue of undue weight.

Orlady, are you saying that because this school is notable for the 1995 controversy that therefore the article should be skewed toward controversy? If so, I think we'd want to get some other opinions on that. My feeling is that NPOV applies and that an article should be balanced, regardless of the pretext for inclusion.

Degreemill, there's no question that Warnborough is not accredited. But that doesn't mean it can't offer educational programs, and do so legitimately. Here's how accreditation works in the U.S.: a school is created and begins offering degrees. It has no accreditation, and there is no means of becoming accredited a priori. After offering courses for a number of years, the school can apply as a candidate for accreditation. The accrediting body looks at whether those courses have been accepted as transfer credit by other colleges and uinversities. These schools will often accept courses from a school not accredited after meeting with the student and looking at a course syllabus. Then after the college or university has awarded degrees and graduated some groups of students, then the accrediting body again assesses the college or university. At that point, having evalutated the curriculum, having insured that there are standards of self-assessment in place and that the institution is meeting those standards, having looked at the graduated students, the accrediting body can agree to grant initial accreditation, with a review in a period, of say two the three years. After a couple subsequent reviews, then if all is going well, the accrediting body will visit once every 10 years.

All this by way of saying that just because a school isn't accredited doesn't necesarily mean it's problematic. We simply need to be clear that Warnborough doesn't offer authorized UK or Irish degrees. We need to try to characterize the legimate offerings it's had over the years. We need to clearly state the 1995 contoversy, but not belabor it. It already fairly dominates the article. I think we're working toward a balance, and I believe that we can do this without having an adversarial relationship. If we can't agree, we can try dispute resolution mechanisms.

You maybe right where the process for accreditation is concerned, however this accreditation is not a blanket degree issuing authority. The Warnborough College have applied for accreditation in Ireland but that does not validate their degree courses overall unless they apply for every single course to be accredited.Degreemill 15:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

I don't think the China thing necessarily reflects badly on Warnborough. It could have been as they say -- they were duped by this guy. TimidGuy 11:47, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Warnborough snafu I thinkDegreemill 15:43, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Further research

Orlady, thanks much for attracting the attention of an admin. I'd even be happy if the article were protected while we discuss this and do further research and resolve any disagreements we might have. You make a good point about our not yet having found info from un affiliated source (other than relating to the contoversy). What we need to do is go beyond Google and the New York Times and use a standard index such as Lexis/Nexis to see if we can find information for the period 1973-1995. Do you or Degreemill have access to this index?

Degreemill, you found some interesting info about company registration that bears further research. There's a policy against original research in Wikipedia, so it's not clear how much we can rely on this registration information, but at least as a first step I'd like to understand it. Can you explain what's going on?

Timidguy, the main reason that the name changes occured is purely because it is not legal for a Limited Company in UK or Ireland to use the title 'University' within a company name.Degreemill 15:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Orlady, I think that the first point to resolve is the inclusion of former students. Can you point to a policy or guideline that suggests that this shouldn't be included? I don't think that the notability guideline for creating Wikipedia articles would apply to whether these individuals are named within an article. On the other hand, this is the best information we have so far for creating NPOV. It shows that Warnborough has a history and that some very successful people with professional degrees from top schools consider Warnborugh an important enough part of their education to list it on the resumes and in their bios. TimidGuy 14:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Oops, when Jauerback showed up and posted warnings on our Talk pages, I assumed it was somehow related to the template you posted and that he was an admin. Wrong on both accounts. TimidGuy 15:15, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Regarding non-notable alumni, I don't know WP guidelines inside and out, but I do know that lists of notable people in articles such as this one universally are restricted to people who already have articles or are believed to generally meet the "notability" criteria for articles (in some instances, their names appear prominently in articles about the topics they are known for). For just one example, see List of Athabasca University people (a featured article). For some more typical (non-featured) examples, see List of University of California, Davis alumni or Emory and Henry College. --Orlady 15:20, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Orlady, for discussing. That's always the best first step. These examples are helpful. But is there are guideline regarding this restriction? This is important, because this list is especially important to NPOV.

I'm working under deadline today and won't be back until the end of the day or tomorrow morning. Thanks again.TimidGuy 15:25, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Halfway through my deadline, but couldn't resist doing a search on Google News archives. I'm finding articles on most of the people who I had listed as former Warnborough students, including the Washington Post. Gotta get back to work. TimidGuy 18:58, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

It sounds like you are wanting to list these alumni in order to present Warnborough in a more positive light. Please remember that the article is supposed to provide reasonably comprehensive information about the topic; there's no particular reason to try to include equal fractions of "positive" and "negative" material. Anyway, injection of positivity is not the reason for listing alumni in a university article; university articles identify notable alumni because notable alumni are part of the schools' stories (and sometimes some "notable" alumni are notorious people). Furthermore, the alumni who make it onto lists may not have had successful student careers at their respective schools -- see The Webb Schools, which expelled a couple of the notable alumni listed. --Orlady 21:27, 22 October 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, when you try to balance this article, try to think very clearly and please don't look for too much positivity using alumni. A good majority of the alumni have a reason to praise the Warnborough. I know you have a hard job on this, please consider also my comments throughout this page. I have put as much as I can in regard to their trading, I know an awful lot more but this knowledge cannot be cited as there is not actual evidence I can produce without acrimony. Relevant facts as follows

1995, 15 students America realise the Warnborough University Oxford are not as they we led to believe, they thought they were studying at an Oxford campus whereas they were studying at a campus in Oxford.

1995, the court finds in their favour, and also finds misrepresentation and possible student loan fraud.

Warnborough University moves to London and then to Canterbury, a University city in UK., they trade as a University by using an Irish Limited company with a branch in UK.

The UK authorities make the Warnborough drop the title 'university' similarly action is taken by the Irish authorities to remove the title 'university' from the Irish Limited Company.

In Ireland the Warnborough University Limited only had an accommodation address, and traded solely out of Canterbury. The office in Ireland was purely a Registered Office with no real representation for students etc. Eventually they took an office in Bray in fact it was a small room over a pub.

Warnborough evolve into two Colleges run by the office in Canterbury and move the Irish 'base' to Allhallows Campus in Dublin and continue offering degrees via the College. Allhallows Campus is very useful because it makes the Warnborough look a bit special and students may think Warnborough are directly part of Allhallows Campus. There is no claim to this on their web site and neither is there a disclaimer.

Learning centres are being used to offer their degrees to local people in Asia etc, unaccredited degrees are being touted in Asia.

You will forgive my negativity but it all looks to my eyes as if the circle has returned to the start again. These guys are very good at dancing on a pin whilst operating by smoke and mirrors.Degreemill 06:59, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Degreemill. This is excellent. Do you have a source regarding Warnborough's application for accreditation in Ireland? I think it's within Wikipedia guidlines to list former students. And I think it can be done in a balanced way. I would like to add this list, but also I would like to add specific points you mention. Currently the aticle doesn't include information about UK authorities making them drop the title "University." Also, I think we can document that Warnborough has misrepresented itself in Asia[1]. The key is to just state the facts simply. Too often Wikipedia editors come to articles such as this with an agenda, and they skew the article in a particular direction. In my mind, the situation is necessarily ambiguous. Warnborough has a history, including satisfied former students. It had a controversy in 1995, and this is simply documented in the article. Since then it has focused on distance education. And it's fine for it to offer distance ed programs and not be accredited. The problem comes if it misrepresents these programs. It has done so. We need to be clear about this, but not by hitting the reader over the head with it in the best tradition of "POV pushers." (That's Wikipedia slang for people who fight to skew articles toward their point of view.)

I treasure this discussion and am glad I'm not dealing with POV pushers. Again, I think we can arrive at a well balanced article. I think this article should be fair to Warnborough and it's long history but also state simply the issues. TimidGuy 11:44, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, regarding the title 'University' in a company name please see item 39 in this http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/ukpga_19980030_en_7#pt4-pb3-l1g39 also http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk/about/gbhtml/gbf3.shtml. The first link refers to the Education Act 1998, and the second link refers to Companies House and certain titles that can or cannot be used for Limited Companies. (see appendix b) I can assume the same for Ireland as they dropped the title 'University' as approved by the Irsih Authorities, which I think is double speak for being told to drop that title. The accreditation application in Ireland is most probably one typed line on the web site, I doubt whether they have actually asked for course accreditation as it would be financial prohibitive, their past is truly awful and I am sure they would abuse any accreditation to the infinite degree.(pardon the pun). I am aware they tried for BAC http://www.the-bac.org/ accreditation and got knocked back and apparently I believe the same with Edexcel http://www.edexcel.org.uk/home/ , but I cannot produce citations so this is hear-say.

Lets go through their Learning Centres one by one. http://www.warnborough.edu/centres.htm

1. ACS http://www.acsedu.co.uk/ these people supply all the short courses.

2. Aussie Outback Safaris http://www.aussiesafaris.com/ more like an advert really.

3. Baltimore Actors Theatre Conservatory http://www.baltimoreactorstheatre.org/ nothing about the Warnborough on its web site, I do see Trinity College though.

4. Distance Learning Systems Indiana http://www.dlsii.com/ looks strange..

5. Foreign Language Centre http://www.foreignlanguagecentre.com.au/index.html Language school in Australia.

6.Globenet International College for Professional Studies (India) http://www.globenetindia.com/ links fails !!

7.Health Schools Australia (Australia) http://www.healthaustralia.com/ nice web site and very legitimate but no mention of the Warnborough.

8.IBISO Creative Inspirational Learning (Singapore) http://www.ibiso.com.sg/our_partners.html looks like it offer Warnboroughs courses.

9.International Academy of Management and Economics (Philippines) http://www.iame.edu.ph/global_tieups.htm mentions Warnborough and some other sensible Universities.

10.International Institute of Business Studies (Sri Lanka) link comes up with item 9.

11. Agricultural Museum and Culture, Kasetsart University (Thailand) No link, presumable because the Thai MOE requires proper accreditation as per here http://www.moe.go.th/English/inter_school/index_eng.htm

12. Queens School of Security and Management Studies (Nigeria) No link

13. St Aquinas College of Higher Education (Sri Lanka) No link

14. St Paul University (Philippines) http://www.spup.edu.ph/ a real University, they use Warnborough material

15.Times Academy for Chinese Enterprise Management (China) No link and nothing on Google

16.Universidad Cuauhtémoc (Mexico) http://www.cuauhtemoc.edu.mx/ in Spanish. Could not see Warnborough mentioned.

17.Yanjing Overseas Chinese University (China) http://www.yanjingoc.com/E-ver/index.htm no mention of the Warnborough.They do mention the American Maharishi University of Management (?)and the University of Plymouth. http://www.plymouth.ac.uk/

Strangely the majority fail to mention the Warnborough. This is simply because the problems surrounding the Warnborough need to be addressed before students are convinced or reassured that a Warnborough degree course is a viable financial investment. This is because the local area Departments of Education would need to be assured that any course followed by a local national student is of marketable value. This is why the Malaysian Learning Centres, as were, are not listed.

I recall these institutions had affiliations with the Warnborough 1. LCMIT http://www.lcmit.com/en/college/index.html and 2. Central College http://www.central-college.com/ Both of which dropped out due to accreditation problems and the fact that students failed to pay for courses that did not have the same value as an accredited course.

Finally http://www.discourse.net/mt/mt-commt.cgi?entry_id=661 Ismo Kuhanen worked for the Warnborough. A few of the bloggers are Warnborough people too.. Ismo tells the truth. Also http://www.discourse.net/archives/2004/02/now_a_genuine_nightmare.html A blog of course is not an acceptable citation, but I can assure you it is all true. I have almost run out of information that can be written here, my other information would be consideered as 'hear-say' although I can vouch for the truth of it. And yes, I did work for the Warnborough and yes I do know almost everything and yes I had to help clear up a lot of very bad situations too.Suffice to say if anyone asked me where to spend a few thousand pounds/euros/dollars I would say go to an accredited institution and run fast from the Warnborough.Degreemill 13:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this research. We'll just take it one step at a time. I think ultimately the article will be organized differently, and I do think that while trying to maintain balance we may have a section on misrepresentation. It will be important to follow the guideline WP:NPOV, especially regardng the tone we use. We will state things in a simple, matter-of-fact fashion. And we'll try to be fair to all sides.

I'm open to most input, but I think for now I'll avoid the blogs. I've seen how bloggers who are seemingly credible can seriously distort information. And frankly, those bios that I looked at suggested strongly to me that Warnborough is capable of delivering education. These are highly successful professionals, a number of whom have national reputations, who list their Warnborough schooling right alongside their prefessional degrees from top schools.

I think the next step is to draft a couple sentences that make more clear the alleged misrepresentation associated with their use of the word "university." This could replace the current information which simply says that Irish authorities asked them to change their name. At the same time, I think to maintain balance we should add names of former students.

I hope you and Orlady can be patient as we work toward an article fair to all points of view. I don't have a lot of time to spend on this, so it will be a gradual process. TimidGuy 15:35, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

TimidGuy, are you familiar with Wikipedia:Ownership of articles? --Orlady 15:45, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi, Orlady. I'm familiar with that. Every point I'm making here is in the direction of collaboration. I'm very eager that we collaborate on an article that is in accord with Wikipedia guidelines. Is there something I've said that suggests I'm not wanting to collaborate and that I own the article? The points I make above are in response to input from you and Degreemill. Do you have a better idea how to proceed? There's a lot of information to pin down, and sources to be found. This is a complex situation. TimidGuy 16:10, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps this is just your personal style, but statements like "Thanks for this research; we'll just take it one step at a time" impress me as the condescending words of a superior (general, parent, boss, or the like) telling the underlings (troops, kids, employees, or the like) "I am in charge; I make the decisions around here." You got involved with the Warnborough articles back in August, removed a lot of content, rewrote things, and left notes indicating that you were actively engaged in merging the two articles. After you reacted to my edits with comments that I interpreted as indicating that you intended to be the final arbiter on every item in the article, I pretty much left you and the articles alone while you went through a gradual editing/merging process. Other contributors to the articles appear to have done much the same thing. Two months later, after the merger was finally completed, I felt that you had had the article to yourself for long enough and looked in to see how things looked. I was -- and continue to be -- concerned by the milquetoast flavor of the article and the impression that I received that the solid reliably sourced (and mostly negative) information about the Warnborough schools was barely visible. Your reaction to my edits suggested to me -- and continues to suggest -- that you are committed to maintaining that milquetoast quality, and in fact are looking for more sugar to sprinkle on top to cover the taste of the negative information. --Orlady 01:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

As for your request that others of us "collaborate" in your effort to dig up additional information (preferably positive) about this institution, that's your goal in editing this article. It's not my goal, and I would be surprised if Degreemill, TallMagic, or other contributors share your goal. It appears to me that you are committed to making a silk purse out of a sow's ear. (Come to think of it, Warnborough is trying to do much the same thing -- trying to establish a new identity distinct from the historical identities that are associated with the negative information about the place.) The reality is that the only truly positive information available about Warnborough is material disseminated by Warnborough. The rest is either neutral or negative. I do not intend to waste my time looking under rocks to see something has been overlooked -- I've already done the research to convince myself. For example, search Google Scholar for the "Warnborough College", "Warnborough University," and/or the names of the institution's academic officials, and cogitate on what the search results tell you about the quantity (not even the quality) of Warnborough's scholarly output. (Even the typical Bible college produces more bona fide Google Scholar hits, but Warnborough offers Ph.Ds!) I agree that this school is not a fraud in the class of University Degree Program, but I suspect its degree-granting programs fall in the same class as Rushmore University (which, BTW, has many alumni and students maintaining websites about their positive experiences -- AFAICT, those websites are required for their coursework!) and Warren National University. At best, I see it as similar to Career Education Corporation, Argosy University, and Corinthian Colleges International, Inc., which are outfits that probably provide some legitimate education and training, but will never be accused of being academic or ethical giants. I think the Warnborough article should tell the truth, and I think it is a waste of time for you to try to sugar-coat its story. --Orlady 01:11, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, could you please point me to the pages of the Foreign Institutions on the Warnborough Learnnig Centres list, where those institutions actually mention the Warnborough. I ask this because your statement as quoted, "These are highly successful professionals, a number of whom have national reputations, who list their Warnborough schooling right alongside their prefessional degrees from top schools." does look terribly Warnboroughy..

Timidguy and Orlady...Meantime I have emailed Allhallows College, Dublin http://www.allhallows.ie/ and asked them to consider various facts with supplied evidence, as to whether the Warnborough present a possible case now or in the future of misrepresentation. Also whether the Warnborough College should be issuing or not issuing degrees from their presence on Allhallows Campus. Similarly I have written to the DFES (UK)http://www.dfes.gov.uk/ who have passed my information on to the Borders and Immigration Agency UK http://www.bia.homeoffice.gov.uk/ for consideration as to whether the Warnborough are a fit organisation to be registered with the DFES for offer degree study to overseas students. We shall see how this pans out.Degreemill 07:51, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, with regard to the blog entries, I have emailed Ismo Kuhanen to see if he would be kind enough to add some of his knowledge to this.Degreemill 11:21, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to be sure everyone was aware of WP:MEAT, which states "Do not recruit meatpuppets. It is considered highly inappropriate to advertise Wikipedia articles to your friends, family members, or communities of people who agree with you, so that they come to Wikipedia and support your side of a debate." Dreadstar † 17:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Orlady, for sharing your heartfelt concerns. I think you may be attributing to me intentions that I don't have. I would indeed like to find more information about the period 1973-1995. Why not? That's a substantial part of Warnborough's history. Wouldn't a fair and balanced article that conforms with NPOV include such information? I'd also like to find if there are sources that document whether Warnborough has misrepresented its accreditation 1997 to present, including in Asia. All we have right now, if I remember correctly, is the article saying that it was asked not to use "University," as well as that short item I found. Doesn't it seem like these things merit further research? I don't have any interest in Warnborough other than seeing that the article conforms to Wikipedia policies and guidelines. I'm not specifically looking for positive information, though I think it would be fair to include such.

We have different points of view, so we're forced to collaborate. My point of view is that the article should conform to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, especially NPOV. (It's not enough that something be reliably sourced -- it has to reflect balance. Sure, we could catalog every single negative thing that the press said about the 1995 controversy and have a huge article, but my feeling is that that would violate NPOV -- UNDUE in particular.) Your point of view (please forgive me if I misstate it) seems to be either that Warnborough is a scam and that this article should create a strong impression that it's not legitimate, even urging me not to put in positive information.

I'm not in control of the article -- the policies and guidelines are. I'm sorry if I've given the impression that I own it. My feeling is that we need to do a bit more research, see if we can identify key issues, and then if we can't agree, use dispute procedures to amicably resolve any disagreements. Degreemill has given us a lot of information to digest. I'm still trying to get a handle on things. (And am now considering suggesting, for example, that we organize the article chronologically to help sort out the issues -- but let's take that up later.) I'm also sorry that I have a full-time job and can't move as quickly as you would seem to prefer.

Degreemill, unfortunately I didn't understand your point. I was referring to the list of former students that I had added to the article. In their bios they listed Warnborough alongside top schools that they had attended. TimidGuy 11:47, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Hi Timidguy, I agree with your idea about a timeline this would be extremely useful as then information can be collated clearly to portray events leading to a full list of how they use marketing. Of course should they actually have any course approved and accredited by a PROPER authority then you could retract elements as this would be fair and proper.

Where misrepresentation in Asia is concerned, this is fairly simple, Western qualifications have kudos in Asia and the Warnborough higher echelons visit many countries there to speak and market their courses using Educational Agents. Of course commissions are payable and the lack of proper degree issuing authority or accreditation is going to be glossed over or else those agents are not going to earn money selling the courses to students. Misrepresentation can occur because they just don't tell the whole truth.. imagine trying to sell a degree course by saying.. "this course is unaccredited and there is no degree issuing authority". Also Asian employees usually check employees credentials especially where no apparent presence is within their nation boundaries, leading to dissappointment for the unsuspecting student.

The Learning Centres or affiliates can be assumed to be sales agents. :http://www.acseduonline.com/educationaffiliates.aspx http://www.acs.edu.au/affiliates.asp and http://www.acsedu.co.uk/Info/About-Us/Affiliates.aspx the last link clearly states and I quote "Warnborough College Ireland Based in Ireland offering degrees and post graduate qualifications both by course work and metoring, across the world. ACS offers a range of bachelors degree, and a pre med diploma jointly delivered with Warnborough" Plus http://www.acsedu.co.uk/Info/Advice/Frequently-Asked-Questions.aspx where we can see "Q. Do you offer Degrees? A. Yes, we offer degrees at undergraduate and postgraduate level. ACS Distance Education (UK) and Warnborough University have combined to introduce Warnborough University degree courses in a variety of disciplines. The programme has been specially structured so that it meets the academic requirements for those seeking a career in this profession in any part of the world."

Likewise http://biospectrumindia.ciol.com/content/student/10505118.asp scroll down and see the Warnborough man spouting off.. This is for consumption in India.

http://www.fullcirc.com/weblog/2004/08/international-review-of-research-in.htm succinct to the point that there was no answer from the Warnborough.

http://www.ditsu.ie/docuploads/Compact04.pdf Page 7....damning or what.

http://www.trainingmultimedia.co.uk/links_training.htm Quote... "Distance Learning at Warnborough College - Distance Learning Courses and Programs at Warnborough College at Bachelors, Masters, and PhD levels. Warnborough College is fully certified for ISO 9001:2000 and ISO 27001:2005. You can study in your own time. Study in your own space. Start on the first of any month. Some of our programs allow full customisation to your needs or situation and guidance from top faculty."

All these links add up a long list of marketing of degrees that are worthless, some of the links pre-date the Warnborough evolution from University to College but all offer a degree that would be considered as either worthless or in some states in USA illegal.

How one puts a positive note of all this, I can only state that the short courses are of value, otherwise I submit that the rest can only be negative to make people understand before they commit. To my mind that would be a great public service!...Degreemill 13:31, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Open apology to Timidguy and Orlady... sorry if I have seemed to bombard this discussion but I feel very strongly about these people. I dislike young people or not so young people who are trusting in their search for education and are mislead by those who should know better.Degreemill 13:37, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Degreemill. Haven't yet had a chance to look at the links but I get the drift. Am on the job and won't have much time today. In your comments you seem to be aware of the constraints regarding sources, so that's something we have to consider. What we need is a source that says these things. Here are the relevant policies: WP:NOR and this guideline WP:RS. TimidGuy 15:16, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Everyone please focus on the editorial content of the article and remember to refrain from commenting on other contributors and that Wikipedia is not a soapbox, which applies to both the article content as well as the talk page contents. And please read my note above about WP:MEAT. Dreadstar † 17:49, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Dreadstar, if any of my posts contravene Wikipedia policys, please remove them, it is not my intention to cause Wikipedia or contributors any problems. ThanksDegreemill 18:39, 24 October 2007 (UTC)

Use of "University"

Degreemill, I'm still trying to understand some things. (And even if we can pin them down, it's not clear what latitude we have within the constraints of WP:NOR. But let's start by establishing facts.) We have cited an article in an Irish newspaper which reports that Warnborough was asked, per a 1997 act, not to use "University." I believe you put a link to this act at some point, but I can't find it. Also, I assumed that this act was from an Irish federal authority. Yet you posted that info from a UK agency showing that Warnborough was removed as a company because of the use of "University." Does somehow the 1997 act apply both in Ireland and the UK? Was Warnborough UK also using "University." Also, it was removed in 2004, but the action by the Irish Department of Education and Science was in 2005. I guess the UK and Ireland must have separate but similar laws.

Sorry to be so naive about these things. Thanks. TimidGuy 11:50, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, please look through my posts 20th October, the set up was like this.

1. Limited Company in Ireland called Warnborough University

2. Limited Company in UK called Warnborough University then registered as a branch of item 1. (This is for UK taxation purposes too)

Both UK and Ireland proscribe the use of the title 'University' unless the entity holds a Charter or govenrmenttal approval. The Irish authorities moved in on this and so did the UK authorities so they lost the title University and the Colleges evolved. Alos the Irish company, Warnborough University' was used as the 'degree issuing authority' as they considered an Incorporation Certificate to be the same as a Charter. This was stated by a company official in a BBC Radio 5 interview.

At the end of the day and acting as NPOV or whatever WP rules bites, I can say that the Warnborough offer quality short courses, they offer degree courses brom Bachelors up to Doctorate... but these are not accredited nor do they have authority to issue such degree diplomas.

They say they have applied for accreditation, it is on their web site, this should I guess be acceptable to portray as is, but with the caveat that Wikipedia is watching to see what pans out. However if they have applied for accreditation, why don't they put the Governmental body's name with the statement, so students can check the voracity of the statement by contacting the body involved in Ireland. This would fit neatly into your post regarding a degree prior to accreditation status.Degreemill 12:59, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. This is quite clear. The impression I have is that not being chartered in the UK disallows granting "degrees" but does not constrain granting certificates or diplomas. And the impression I have is that the use of "degree" in Ireland by a school that isn't chartered is not against the law. I guess I infer that from their web site. Do you know anything about this?

By the way, this will eventually have a bearing on how we describe the status of Warnborough and on the chronology. For example regarding status, right now the article says that Warnborough Ireland isn't accredited, but that's such a generic term and there are so many different accreditations that it's probably not accurate. Ultimately, we'll have to be more precise and say something like, "Warnborough College Ireland doesn't currently have a charter and doesn't offer Irish degrees." But if there's no constraint on the usage of "degree" then that's not accurate either. Anyway, step by step . . . And ultimately we may bump up against WP:NOR. Still, it seems useful to pin this down. TimidGuy 14:54, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

I think it is against the law in Ireland as well as UK, although an Irishman may dispute that they follow UK law, their legal structures are pretty much the same, especially in fraudulent education.

I have made a list of Limited companies so you can be clearer.. as below

Warnborough timeline.

'''Ireland'''

1.Warnborough University in Ireland reference search on http://www.cro.ie

Warnborough University Limited registered 3rd April 1997, company number 264181

'''UK''' http://www.companieshouse.gov.uk

1.Warnborough University Limited in UK registered 11th April 2004, company number BR007583, registered as 11th April 2004 as a branch of Warnborough University Limited in Ireland. Name change on 2nd November 2004. Company closed 31st May 2006

2. Warnborough College Limited, registered 16/08/2000 company number 04054294 and still in existence....

'''Subsequent and up to date.'''

In Ireland Warnborough University Limited, 264181 now called Warnborough College Limited

Also registered in Ireland

1. WARNBOROUGH COLLEGE company number 338039 registered 9th July 2007

2. WARNBOROUGH COLLEGE IRELAND company number 344436 registered 24th October 2007

Regarding the degrees issued, most certainly they are not accredited nor do they have a Charter and without a doubt they are offered from Ireland as per http://www.warnborough.ie/ ...

The degrees are issued by WARNBOROUGH COLLEGE in Ireland. Also a whois search on the warnborough.ie reveals this

domain:warnborough.ie, descr: WARNBOROUGH UNIVERSITY LIMITED, descr: Body Corporate (Ltd,PLC,Company)descr: Corporate Name

I rest my case M'lud and forgive my bad wikipedia sentence formating..Degreemill 15:28, 25 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks so much, Degreemill. This is very helpful. I do think we can state simple facts about registration without violating WP:NOR but at some point I'll check on that to be sure. All of this is suggesting that a chronological structure for the article would be good. I need to get on Lexis/Nexis to see if there are any other sources. For some reason, my password isn't working and I'll have to make special trip to the library. TimidGuy 11:57, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes, a timeline structure would be excellent, I think the best way is to copy and paste this whole page in MS Word and then cut out anything not needed, then look at the links and fit them into a timeline structure around the Limited Companies and events pertaining to. This should fit and WP rules because it is pure fact backed up with citations or references.

For a positive side, I would suggest that they do offer substantial short courses as an affiliate of ACS. The Degree courses up to PhD can be described a unaccredited and issued without a Charter at present, and that the Warnbourgh state they have applied for accreditation. Also it can be made clear a Charter gives carte blanc to issue degrees, and accreditation is only given or approved by an Authorising body with a Charter to issue degrees per course delivered.

An example of accreditation is here http://www.lcmit.com/en/prospect/programme.html from this we can see an example of a College offering a Univiersity Degree course that is accredited. In this example, we can presume that LCMIT register a student and pay the University of Sunderland a fee for that student and then deliver a standard of tuition to the student so that the University of Sunderland can issue the degree.Degreemill 12:16, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

This is good. It feels like we're getting some substance and a handle on the details, as well as a plan for organization. I guess the next step will be an index to see if I can find any additional sources. Then maybe post on the NOR talk page about whether and how to use in the article the database that provides company registration info. Then begin rewriting. I think all parties will be pleased. It will be simple and factual. TimidGuy 15:22, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Precisely right, I have put several links to Govt Acts to act as maybe a header explanation paragraph regarding Universities and Charters. Then the timeline can be begin, to portray the twists and turns factually. But I think you should keep this under wraps or I fear that the Warnborough will inject their thoughts into it. This is article is not to 'hang' the Warnborough, it is to inform interested readers of how the Warnborough got from 1973 to present. Simple and factual with clear references will suffice.Degreemill 16:39, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Further information regarding Higher Education in Ireland, I think I posted a link to this earlier but this clarifies the situation in Ireland. http://www.education.ie/servlet/blobservlet/he_providers_of_higher_education_ireland.htm?language=EN it seems that to be able to offer a degree course an institution has to have either 1. an Act of Parliament (Act of the Oireachtas) or 2. State Aid or 3. have course(s) accredited or validated, leading to awards of the Higher Education and Training Awards Council (HETAC).http://www.hetac.ie/

HETAC may delegate authority to make awards to recognised institutions under the Qualifications (Education and Training) Act 1999

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/acts/1999/a2699.pdf

likewise http://www.hetac.ie/docs/Current%20status%20of%20Delegation%20of%20Authority%20to%20Make%20Awards,%20March%202006%20-%20General%20Introduction.pdfDegreemill 18:15, 26 October 2007 (UTC)

Important, I'm not sure if I noticed this or posted this information. From this Warnborough College Ireland (WCI incorporation in Ireland No.264181) page http://www.warnborough.ie/wikipedia2.htm and scroll down to Wikipedia Myths vs Real Warnborough Facts.

Quote... "Oregon ODA statement: ‘is not an Irish degree-granter’ and their answer is "WCI is an independent college for adult education, and is officially incorporated in Ireland under company law. It does award undergraduate and graduate degrees."

They also state they had to change the Company name from University to College for Company number No.264181 in 2006, and their statement as "working towards acreditation". So they are clearly issuing degrees in Ireland without the legal requirements being fulfilled or a clear statement to whom they have applied for accreditation. If I had a College and I had applied for accreditation, I must certainly would be proud to announce to whom I had applied for accreditation as this would add kudos.Degreemill 06:49, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

My guess is that Ireland is like the U.S. -- any institution can offer a degree, whether accredited or not. But it's clear that Warnborough's degrees aren't within the National Framework for Qualifications. Hope to do some research in standard indices this weekend as a first step toward getting citable sources. I feel like I'm coming to understand the details. TimidGuy 11:42, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure if Ireland is like the US in this aspect, where the places like the Warnborough can offer unaccredited degree courses or offer degree courses without an authority to issue such degrees. It is my assumption that maybe it was like the US but when some stuff hit the fan in 2004-2006, the law was tightened up or the law was used to its fullest extent, hence the name change from University to College. One can only smile at the Warnborugh stating that they changed their name with the approval of the Irish State Authorities. Kind of like a bank robber approving of his manner of arrest.

You are precisely right regarding their degree courses not being within the National Framework for Qualfications, this has been the case ever since 1997 I think. The presence in Ireland has only been substantial since 2005 when they had an office in Bray, previously their presence was in name only within a registered office address. My chief concern is that they now operate from the Allhallows Campus, which indirectly or directly means some kind of prestigeous kudos in a similar vein to the Warnborough College Oxford an we know how that all panned out in 1995.Degreemill 12:36, 27 October 2007 (UTC)

Some Alumni, the comnon thread that runs through these peoples details is that they all profess to have be issued a PhD from the Warnborough University in UK..

Neutral Caveat. They all undertook the hard work required to complete the research and dissertation etc., as necessary to obtain a said PhD becasue the Warnborough does have an impressive list of tutors. However the grant or issue of the their Warnborough PhD is somewhat of a lessened in value, because the chosen educational institution, namely the Warnborough University in UK, did/does not have a Charter in UK nor did/does it have accreditation.

Alumni – Warnborough University.

1.Mike Chambers - http://www.slcconline.edu/alumni/newsrel3-17-2005.php - scored a PhD from the Warnborough University in Canterbury.

2. Jill Keifer - http://www.glendale.edu/cse/instructors/kiefer.html - PhD from Warnborough University, and also mentor / tutor for the Warnborough

3. John McKeown - http://magazine.lakeheadu.ca/page.php?p=34&i=5 Doctorate of Education – Warnborough University

4. Raleigh F. (Sandy) Seay, Jr. - http://www.seay.us/about.shtml - PhD Warnborough University.Degreemill 08:30, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

Idea for a new lead

Here's an idea for a new lead that we might eventually add if we can document within Wikipedia guidelines the various incorporations of Warnborough:

The name Warnborough is associated with a number of different institutions of higher education 1973-present, including Warnborough College Oxford, Warnborough University, Warnborough College, and Warnborough College Ireland.

The purpose of this approach is to help deal with the deal with the confusion surrounding there being a number of different entities with this name. TimidGuy 19:16, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes.... good idea, clarity is essential. I am not sure to the WP guidelines on this, I think it should be possible to portray the multiple trading companies, especially in the light of the fact that they decided that a Limited Company Incorporated in Ireland (Warnborough University) was in effect the same as a Charter to Issue Degrees. Each company traing period should also show that it was Uncharterd and Unaccredited.

so.. we have (my suggestions)

1. 1973-95 Warnborough College Oxford. Unchartered and accredited by Columbia for a short time - closed by US legal action effects.

2. 1995 onwards Team Warnborough move to London

3. Warnborough University Ireland Limited - 1997 incorporated and Unchartered and unaccredited

4. Warnborough University UK - 1997 incorporated and registered as a Branch Office in UK of the Warnbrough University Limited Ireland. Unchartered and unaccredited and also head office in Canterbury UK

5. Warnborough College Limited - UK 1997 incorporated Unchartered and unaccredited

6. Warnborough University Limited Ireland and UK told to remove the name University title

7. Warnborough College Limited UK continues to offer short courses, no need for accreditation as these course are owned by ACS and the Warnborough add a fee for their time etc.

8. Warnborough College Ireland, based in Allhallows College in Dublin, issue degrees when they know full well they are Unchartered and Unaccredited and technically in breach of the Universities Act in Ireland.

These time periods can be peppered with cause and effect references so readers can be aware of the facts only. The only positive notes as I keep saying is that they offer short courses that are legal. You did mention that they could possibly carry on trading whilst awaiting accreditation, this is possibly a valid point, however since 1997 perhaps accreditation would have occured already.. This is also a valid point but also my opinion but the facts in a timeline will show that clearly.Degreemill 20:57, 29 October 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for this summary. I was just editing the Conflict of Interest guideline and these sentences caught my eye -- and justify my approach to this article (and especially to the former Warnborough University article): "This is also the case if you find an article overwhelmed with correctly referenced, but exclusively negative information. This may present a case of undue weight, for example, when a 90% of article about a particular company discusses a lawsuit one client once brought against it. In such a case, such material should be condensed by a neutral editor, and the other sections expanded." I hope to get to the library in the coming days. Am very hopeful that Lexis/Nexis will turn up some sources. TimidGuy 15:34, 30 October 2007 (UTC)

My problem is that all the information, evidence and experience regaridng the Warnborough is 99% negative. Try as hard as I can I just cannot find anything positive except the short courses that is in fact positive. I think the idea about condensing is a good idea, however anyone reading the evidence is probably going to be amazed they lasted 35 years.18:08, 30 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Degreemill (talk • contribs)

I think I'm going to be able to go to the library tonight. Am very hopeful that i'll find some good sources. Perhaps you could find some third-party sources about ACS -- ideally mentioning the partnership with Warnborough. TimidGuy 14:54, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

ACS are an educational company in Australia, http://www.acs.edu.au/default.aspx they were established in 1979 http://www.acs.edu.au/info/school/about.aspx they offer substantial short courses. The courses are run by distance learning with an assigned tutor http://www.acs.edu.au/info/school/about.aspx#how

The ACS have a presence in UK http://www.acsedu.co.uk where they offer the same substantial courses.

The ACS do not offer degree courses, they offer certificate or diploma courses, all of which they are legally entitled to offer. Also they have a list of recognition bodies http://www.acsedu.co.uk/Info/About-Us/recognition.aspx which includes the The British Institute for Learning & Development in Bristol http://www.thebild.org/home and the Australian Council for Private Education and Training http://www.acpet.edu.au/ Also they states that their staff hold memberships of many of the recognition bodies. The list of UK staff http://www.acsedu.co.uk/Info/About-Us/Staff.aspx looks impressive and competent.

The Warnborough College UK and Ireland are listed on the affiliates page http://www.acsedu.co.uk/Info/About-Us/Affiliates.aspx On this page we find this quote about the Warnbrough College Ireland -- Based in Ireland offering degrees and post graduate qualifications both by course work and mentoring, across the world. ACS offers a range of bachelors degree, and a pre med diploma jointly delivered with Warnborough.

While ACS do not offer degree courses directly, they are able to offer degree courses through the Warnborough. Other than this quoted statement, they make no other reference to the Unchartered or Unaccredited degree courses offered by Warnborough College Ireland.Degreemill 18:46, 31 October 2007 (UTC)

However, despite a few hours looking for third party references for anything between Warnborough and ACS, I have drawn a blank...Degreemill 06:04, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I found some Warnborough sources. Will see about ACS sources, though I guess that's not as crucial. TimidGuy 11:36, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

ACS does not come close to being a WP:RS. It appears to be yet another shadowy education operation. The website cites Warnborough to provide credibility to ACS. In the same connection, ACS also cites a nature center offering classes to children. That's hardly an advertisement for ACS' credibility. --Orlady 17:25, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

You found new sources on Lexis/nexis? Excellent work.. what did you find ? I would really like to know what they have on the Warnborough.Degreemill 18:08, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

I found many of the same articles, plus a few more. One is pre-1995 and gives a little info about Warnborough's study-abroad offerings. Found an article about the liquidation of assets. A bit more information about Australia. It's sketchy but enough that we can put together a short article using a chronological structure that will be fair and balanced. Will get started soon. TimidGuy 11:53, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Excellent.. I will await this eagerly.. well done Degreemill 13:32, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

Hopefully will get started this weekend. Maybe later today. TimidGuy 15:36, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

In the interest of transparency, am alerting you to a working draft in my sandbox.[2] Have done very little work other than to copy material there are begin reorganizing it. Will start adding more material and sources in the next few days.TimidGuy 15:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks good.. remember that the whole degree issuing affair was devolved to Warnborough Ireland, after 1995. This was because their Head Office is in Canterbury and they needed a crutch to lean on to stave off and UK Trading Standards etc., action. This is why the BBC got involved. All they are trading in Ireland out of the Allhallows College campus, so in effect it could be the 'Oxford and 1995 ' all over again.18:13, 5 November 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Degreemill (talk • contribs)

I'm hoping to get back to this tomorrow. An article in 2002 in The Australian says that it's not illegal in the UK to offer unaccredited degrees: "They are allowed to operate by the authorities as long as they do not pretend to be accredited British institutions or spark consumer legal actions." Which is, I guess, what happened in 1995 -- a consumer legal action. But I don't recall seeing any reference anywhere to a sanction by British authorities -- only the U.S. termination of financial aid eligibility and fine. TimidGuy 16:09, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Another action that occurred in 1995, after allegations against Warnborough became public in the United States, was the announcement by Maxine Asher that the World Association of Universities and Colleges (an unrecognized accreditation organization) had canceled the school's membership and "accreditation."(See Why They Wanted to Buy an Oxford Degree; End to Accreditation by Maxine Asher, New York Times, letter to the editor, October 7, 1995.)--Orlady 17:26, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, It is is illegal for an institution in UK to offer unaccredited degrees, this is why the "Warnborough A Team" hid away in Ireland by using an Irish Limited Company. Smoke and mirrors.

From the action in 1995 http://www.ed-oha.org/cases/1995-164st.html we see that the College in Oxford misrepresented their status and also their refund policy was not acceptable to the SFAP. Also there is similarities between 1995 in USA and 1997 in Ireland, namely they trade as a Limiited Company and misrepresent themselves as having a degree issuing authority, they had a Limited Company in Columbia presumably set up as a main company with a branch in UK. So this looks like Ireland and 1997.. I quote Footnote 1 of http://www.ed-oha.org/cases/1995-164st.html below.

The College alluded to the fact that it was incorporated in the District of Columbia, arguing that, as an American institution, it was not in violation of British law while operating in Great Britain. However, in so far as Title IV eligibility is concerned, it has always held itself out to be a foreign institution. Since it applied for certification as an eligible foreign institution, it cannot be eligible as a domestic institution.

The article in the Australian 2002 is not a proper positive defence for 35 years trading as a University/College misleading or cheating students into parting with hard earned cash to get degrees on worthless pieces of paper.

As an endnote for me, I think that after trading as a University or College for 35 years, then they would have managed to have obtained even the slightest recognition. I guess I am ranting and soap boxing again.

There was also a possible or probable fraud as in Footnote 5 http://www.ed-oha.org/cases/1995-164st.html and I quote.

5 Some evidence presented at the hearing seemed to confirm that some of the loan checks which were made payable jointly to the respective student and the College were deposited by Mr. Huck into an account which he had set up. My review of the canceled checks reveals that they were deposited into that account without an indorsement from either of the payees and, yet, the checks were paid by the drawee bank. I am extremely concerned because the requirement for dual payees of loan checks in the Federal Family Education Loan Program was implemented as a protective measure against fraud and other violations. Although not within my purview, I recommend that the failure of such measures in this case should be separately reviewed by the appropriate authority within ED.

Orlady.. well done that was the bit I was missing about their so called accreditation.Degreemill 09:18, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Degreemill, you say it's illegal for an institution to offer an unaccredited degree in the UK. We need a source. I haven't been able to find anything, and I haven't even found anything saying that U.K. officials sanctioned Warnborough for the things that happened in 1995. Nor have I found a source that says that in the period 1997-present they are misrepresenting their accreditation, which would be illegal. I do agree with you that some students are being misled, but that's just my opinion, and nothing is possible in Wikipedia without a source

Here's more from the 2003 article in The Australian: "But Britain's Department for Education and Skills admits that 'it is not an offence for overseas organisations to offer their own awards in the UK, as long as they make it clear that they are not qualifications from a UK institution and that [any] accreditation is from overseas'. 'However, the UK authorities are unable to vouch for the quality of these qualifications, many of which may involve no formal study,' the DFES says." This is exactly as the original, including the bracketed word.

Both of you adduce more information about 1995, but in my opinion within the constraint of WP:UNDUE, that section is now complete in the draft in my sandbox, except that I still want to add a phrase or sentence sourced to the article in the St. Louis Post-Dispatch that talks about the suit by 15 students to recover their tuition. By the way, I feel like that section could hardly be more damning.

I'm going to start work on the section 1997 to present, using in part the info you've found, Degreemill. Thank you for that. We will still need to determine whether we can use the database as a source, but I think we can as long as we don't violate WP:SYNTH. Once I've finished a draft of a new version, if both of you agree it's in the ballpark, then we'll replace the current version, and work collaboratively to refine the new one. Hope that's acceptable as a process. If not, let me know. TimidGuy 16:07, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, take a look at this lot, these are sources that relate to the legality or illegality of Degree issuing in UK. I think I have added these previously but the discussion is too big and I think this list will suffice.

Teaching and Higher Education Act 1998 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1998/ukpga_19980030_en_7#pt4-pb3-l1g39 this is section 39 also see section 40.

Uk Department of Further Education http://www.dfes.gov.uk/recognisedukdegrees/index.cfm?fuseaction=content.view&CategoryID=8

Education Listed Bodies 2007 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2007/uksi_20072687_en.pdf

Education Recognised Bodies Statutory Instrument - page 3 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si2005/uksi_20052957_en.pdf

The Education (Listed Bodies) (Amendment) Order 1998 - Statutory Instrument 1998 No. 876 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/si/si1998/19980876.htm Direct quote as follows..... :::"A recognised body within section 214(2)(a) or (b) of the 1988 Act is a university, college or other body which is authorised by Royal Charter or by or under Act of Parliament to grant degrees, or a body which is permitted by a body so authorised to act on its behalf in the granting of degrees. Such degrees are "recognised awards" and the provision in section 214(1) of that Act, which makes it an offence to grant, offer to grant or issue any invitation relating to certain unrecognised degrees and awards, does not apply to them."

To my mind they is no grey area, either they have the Authority directly to issue degrees or they have delegated authority to issue degrees or they do not.

The Australian article is wrong, it is illegal to offer an unrecognised degree in UK or Ireland for that matter, however it does give them a straw to clutch inasmuch that they could offer a degree accredited by an institution that is authorised to issue degrees legally.

The way they work at the Warnborough is simple, they set up a Limited Company overseas and then trade in UK as if they are Overseas establishment. For example.. Limited Company like Warnborough Univeristy/College Ireland trading in Ireland and with the Head Office in UK. It is legality likened to dancing on the head of a pin.Degreemill 09:13, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate your research. I don't understand in what sense the Australian article is wrong. The reporter asks the UK official about Warnborough and then quotes the official's response. But it doesn't seem like there's a contradiction with what you're saying. If Warnborough represents itself as a chartered institution offering recognized British or irish degrees, it's doing something illegal. If it offers degrees but doesn't claim them to be a chartered institution offering recognized degrees, then apparently it's legal.

In any case, my fault for introducing the info from the Australian article. It's not really relevant, because we don't have any source claiming that Warnborough's offerings are illegal. And of course we'd need a source in order to make some sort of statement in the article, which I don't think you're suggesting that we do.

I welcome your feedback on the draft. TimidGuy 16:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

By the way, the info you gave above is very helpful and makes me confident that I worded the accreditation statement correctly in the draft. TimidGuy 16:12, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, most excellent wording on the draft. Obviously should the position on accreditation in Ireland change then the statement can be amended. I am not holding my breath there....

I understand what you mean about the Australian Article, the Warnborough did allude to being a degree issuing authority by the way of a Incorporation of a Limited Company in Ireland, hence the local difficulty over the University title(s) and John Bear etc. As to the illegality, the law is clear, however enforcement is quite toothless, in as much as there needs to be a huge blow up as in USA in 1995 for severe action to be taken. In UK / Ireland such actions would be within the remit of Trading Standards or Consumer Protection following a specific complaint against the Warnborough people. So as they are trading in two countries this muddys the water as to juristiction. I think we have enough to portray the correct image of the Warnborough now.

Regarding alumni, just a thought, I wonder if those named should be approached before they are introduced from sandbox into the article, we must assume that they undertook a 'Warnborough degree' in good faith. However their inclusion within the article may be the cause of employment problems by this direct or indirect linkage to the Warnborough (et al) Limited. Imagine a scenario where a prospective employer or client starts a web search of their name, this search would most certainly produce results linked to the Wikipedia Warnborough Article. Being named in an article is bad, I think, especially as they have only innocently paid the Warnborough (et al) Limited degree fees for what is essentially an unaccredited or unrecognised Warnborough degree. I am sure there must be a WP guideline for this.Degreemill 17:32, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

The British government may not have taken legal action against Warnborough Oxford for the same sort of reason that this 1995 International Herald Tribune article indicates that Oxford University decided not to sue Warnborough for misrepresentation: http://www.iht.com/articles/1995/10/17/oxford.t.php . According to the article, the university was "seeking to resolve the issue by persuasion." --Orlady 02:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Fascinating. That had never occurred to me. My impression is that most of these had been involved in Warnborough's study abroad program pre-1995. None claims a degree from Warnborough. And all have graduate degrees from prestigious universities. They have been so successful in their careers that this association wouldn't likely hurt them. And they all feel positively about Warnborough such that they would mention their Warnborough study alongside their degrees from prestigious universities.

I'm pleased you like the working of the draft. TimidGuy 18:44, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

I continue to contend that the article should only list former students who have their own Wikipedia articles. Currently there are two of those. --Orlady 01:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy and Orlady, yes, I am sure those alumni do feel positive towards the Warnborough and I did name quite a few people who have Warnborough Degrees, also they do have additional proper degrees too. In hindsight I was wrong to post their details. I agree with Orladys' contention that only alumni with Wikipedia articles should be includedDegreemill 16:00, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Notability requirements

Just for everyone's information, the Wikipedia Notability guidelines do not directly limit article content (emphasis is mine)

"Notability guidelines give guidance on whether a topic is notable enough to be included in Wikipedia as a separate article, but do not specifically regulate the content of articles, which is governed by other guidelines such as those on using reliable sources and on handling trivia. The particular topics and facts within an article are not each required to meet the standards of the notability guidelines."

Dreadstar † 07:51, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Ok I'm lost on Dreadstars' post. Is this good or bad and does it relate to the use of alumni without specific permission and without consequence direct or indirect to the use of the alumni? Degreemill 18:30, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

I appreciate Dreadstar's advice. I am aware of many instances in which names of people have been removed from article lists on the grounds that the people do not have articles and are therefore presumed to be nonnotable and not worthy of mention in the article. Dreadstar is telling us that this is, in effect, a Wikipedia Urban Legend. :-)

In this situation, however, my concern about listing people in this article as "former students" is related to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons#People_who_are_relatively_unknown . All of the "former students" mentioned (including the two with WP articles) are living people who are relatively unknown, and who probably have no clue that a minor detail mentioned on their personal or professional websites could become a significant factoid in a potentially controversial Wikipedia article. I think Wikipedia should respect their privacy. I have doubts about mentioning any of them, but most especially the ones who lack WP articles. --Orlady 00:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Nice try, but no. That's a misapplication of the section of the WP:BLP policy you've quoted, and a distortion of my statements. It's in the cases where an article or biography of a person has been created that the WP:BLP People who are relatively unknown comes into play. If you think any article violates that policy, please give me the specifics immediately so it can be addressed. In the meantime, I suggest you concentrate on finding consensus for a list of alumni to be added to the article, and not continue to focus on whether each one of them has to have their own article to be included in that list- that's the point I was making. Dreadstar † 02:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

That list of former students in the article in TimidGuy's sandbox is a list of almost everyone who has a webpage that indicates they once attended Warnborough. (There are some omissions, including Candy Wagahoff Dale, a lawyer in Boise, Idaho; S. Iyabo Tinubu-Karch, M.D., of Seattle; and Mr. Gersom Katjimune, Managing Director of Mutual & Federal Insurance Company of Namibia.) All of these people mention their erstwhile attendance at Warnborough within a longish list of credentials and qualifications; it does not have a central place in their CVs (although it appears to me that Mr. Katjimune studied there to improve his English so he could attend a recognized British post-secondary institution). Considering that the most notable thing about Warnborough is its history of duping people in the mid-1990s, I am concerned that listing these people's names in an article about the school could harm their reputations in a way that including the Warnborough name as an obscure entry on their CV does not. --Orlady 03:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Let me make this very clear, an individual can have notability sufficient to be included in this article without having to meet the high bar of Wikipedia:Notability that is required for having their own article. The threshold for inclusion is WP:V and WP:RS. Your edit here is a misapplication of the Wikipedia policy on notability. That is my point.

I expect you and the other editors here to find a consensus on the list of alumni that should be included in the article - if the individual is of sufficient stature in thier field or in society to be named and they have published this information, then the person should strongly considered for inclusion (such as the individuals you removed in the diff above). I wouldn't advocate adding every Tom, Dick and Harriet that went there, but there should be a listing of some of the alumni. While I will be happy to mediate the issue, I will not be engaging in this dispute over individual names. Dreadstar † 04:49, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I will add that if there is consensus that only alumni that have their own articles should be listed, I won't argue against that. But I am saying that it's not policy to do so - and frankly, I dnn't see a reason for it here. The disputed short list seems like an ok addition, even if every person doesn't have their own artlcle, but I'll leave that up to consensus. Dreadstar † 05:11, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Considered thoughts from me, as an ex-employee of the Warnborough (et al) Limited. The 'degree' style courses have content that are/colud be useful to the particular students. Benefit has been obtained by following the course, and quite a few students have benefited but also most already hold acceptable and recognised degrees or higher qualifications. However as I said earlier is it fair to bring those people into the machinations of the Warnborough (et al)Limited. I think that the article should be produced to show the evolutionary timescale of the Warnborough to its present incarnation. Orlady is right about duping people, but is it fair to include 'dupees' and possibly be the cause of carer problems or at worse case dismissal.

The alumni I mentioned are actively involved within the Warnborough faculty and therefore could by using tortuous thinking to a abetting the Warnborough in its present activities. Most if not all of the teaching faculty are bought in on an ad hoc basis and their tutoring capabilities are impressive beyond question. But.... students can see an impressive faculty list with impressive credentials all of which tends to support the assumption that the Warnborough is a bona fide institution.Degreemill 07:10, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Degreemill. Your sincerity rings true. It's great having your perspective as a former employee, and your acknowledgment that Warnborough is capable of delivering quality education.

I feel like concerns of harm are unwarranted. These are people at the top of their profession, with graduate degrees from prestigious institutions. It's simply not possible that their level of success could be harmed by having taken some Warnborough courses in their past. Degreemill mentions worst case as dismissal, but these are people who are in charge. Your ethical consideration might be valid if it were a young person whose only degree was Warnborough.

Further, I feel like including this list is essential to adhering to WP:NPOV. It's the only thing in the article that represents the point Degreemill made above -- Warnborough is capable of delivering quality education. Right now the article is heavily weighted toward the 1995 controversy and the lack of accreditation. We need to show the other side: that Warnborough has some satisfied customers. If these highly prominent people had felt there was any lack in their Warnborough schooling, they wouldn't have listed it along with their other major credentials.

The worst case scenario is that they see their name in this article and delete it. Fine. That's the beauty of Wikipedia -- the encyclopedia that anyone can edit. But it's also possible that they regard highly their Warnborough experience and would be happy to be on record as having studied there. TimidGuy 12:41, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Accreditation (and/or lack thereof) and relationship between the different Warnboroughs

Responding to Degreemill's other point -- I don't know how we could state Warnborough's lack of accreditation any more clearly. I don't think including this list will somehow make readers think that Warnborough is accredited. Even with the addition of the names, the article is still weighted toward the controversy. I really don't think it will mislead anyone. TimidGuy 12:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, I think you are right about the Alumni and their right to delete as appropriate. I was erring on the side of caution. I think you are exactly right about accreditation because the timescale is factual and accurate. The article will allow the reader to form an accurate opinion of the Warnborough in their own time and maybe pose the questions that the Warnborough management need to answer to bring themselves into line.Degreemill 15:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Degreemill. TimidGuy 16:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Further suggestion.. should I /we place a posting in the Allhallows College Ireland Wikipedia article to link Warnboroughs' presence to that Institution.?Degreemill 06:03, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't seem like there's any relationship between the two. I don't understand why there would be a link back to Warnborough.

I'm confident of the factual accuracy of the draft in my sandbox except for the info about post-1995 registration as Warnborough College in the UK. Was the earlier company dissolved? I can understand why they briefly created Warnborough University UK. But apart from that, I'm not clear on the Warnborough College UK registration. Did they have to register a new company because they changed location? I guess I should review your postings, but if I remember correctly, I tried to sort this out as I was writing the draft and didn't have it clear in mind. TimidGuy 16:48, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

The draft looks good.. regarding the companies.. the ploy is simple.. firstly set up a limited company in another country like Ireland and call it for example xxxxx University Limited ... A legality needed is a small presence is required, for this example we would use a Register Office facility from the accountants who set up the Limited Company. So.. we have a company in say.. Ireland. Then we make out it can issue degrees because it has a 'charter' of incorporation.

Ahhhh but we are really in UK.. so we set up another company in UK called xxxx University and/or xxxx College Limited, for tax purposes we make this company a 'branch' of the Irish company.

So we have two companies now.. and we can trade in UK off the supposed degree issuing authority of an overseas company.. If trading Standards kick up a fuss in UK we can blame the Irish company. This is because the Head Office is in UK and any complaints would be issued in UK.

However after time shytaceous material will hit the fan.. and we change the xxx University into xxxx College Limited in both countries .. and hey presto with the greatest of ease we are in the clear, and all we do for accreditation is say.. we are working towards accrditation.. How sweet is that?

Because in effect as we are in two places we are almost immune to actions because we are not a University anymore. Of course we can add kudos into the mixture by moving into a small office on an established campus such as University College Dublin or maybe Allhallows College.... Fancy setting up a College or two then Timidguy?Degreemill 18:45, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm... The addresses are "remarkably" similar.

(1) All Hallows College, Grace Park Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9, Ireland.

(2) Warnborough College Ireland, All Hallows, Grace Park Road, Drumcondra, Dublin 9, Ireland.

--Orlady 23:54, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes, you spotted it Orlady, lets see what Timidguy makes of it, to my mind it will turn out to be all 1995 deja vu all over again.Degreemill 06:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like a conspiracy theory to me. : ) Not sure the Talk page is the place for it. Keep in mind Dreadstar's earlier comment about the purpose of the talk page. I guess we have consensus for the new draft.

Degreemill, do you know the answers to my specific questions above? I understand about the temporary registration of Warnborough University UK, but I'm not clear regarding the post-1995 registration of Warnborough College UK. TimidGuy 11:59, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually what I wrote is in fact factual and bears out in the timeline. As to pre 1995, I am not sure but I believe they operated as a single limited company under the name of Warnborough College. The University arrives on the scene post 1995. It was this Warnborough College incarnation that was sued in thsi action http://www.ed-oha.org/cases/1995-164st.html

The pre 1995 Warnborough College company is not the same entity as the post 1995, strangely in UK it is possible to take the name of a dissolved limited company, so directors can cease trading one minute and start all over again a few weeks/months/years later. Degreemill 13:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

How do we know that the pre-1995 company was dissolved? TimidGuy 15:55, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Actually thats a very good point. I notice that the 1995 action against these guys has only the name Warnborough College. I wonder if they had an Amercian company and traded into UK that way.. In the law suit they mention a Seattle agent, so I wonder if this was how they operated. Frankly though I do not know the answer to this question.-- Degreemill (talk) 17:00, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, Degreemill. I'll look into this a bit more, and give it some thought, and may revise the related sentence in the draft before making it live. TimidGuy (talk) 15:58, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

Timidguy, I think your comment about a 'conspiracy theory' is very close to the truth. The Warnborough are more than aware that they will never manage to obtain any form of accreditation or proper recognition. These wretched people will continue to trade until the authorities stamp on them big time. Hopefully prospective students will also read the discussion part of the Warnborough article and be saved from making probably the biggest mistake of their lives by giving money to these people for a worthless degree courseDegreemill (talk) 10:07, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

On this page they claim to be accredited by IARC, which appears to be an accreditation mill. They don't seem to mention this anywhere on their .edu site. -Amatulic (talk) 22:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, International Accreditation and Recognition Council (IARC) is listed on List of unrecognized accreditation associations of higher learning. Added: Their list of member institutions includes both the UK and Ireland versions of Warnborough, some vocational schools (for example, schools of interior decorating), some Bible schools, several entities in India, some alternative medicine schools, and a few institutions that I recognize as "probably diploma mills." --Orlady (talk) 23:22, 26 December 2007 (UTC)