Talk:Watcher in the Water/GA2

GA Review

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Reviewer: Hog Farm (talk · contribs) 15:23, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for taking on this one. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:07, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Criteria

1. Prose ✓ Pass

2. Verifiability ✓ Pass

3. Depth of Coverage ✓ Pass

4. Neutral ✓ Pass

5. Stable ✓ Pass

6. Illustrations ✓ Pass

7. Miscellaneous ✓ Pass

Comments

1.

• Misty Mountains and Caradhras both link to the Geography of Middle-earth article, but for some reason, the Redhorn Gate goes to Moria. Caradhras and the Redhorn Gate are essentially duplinks. That Caradhras is a mountain is already stated means the duplink isn't necessary, and a gloss stating that Redhorn Gate is a pass might be helpful (although it's also fairly obvious).

Done.

• "and the Watcher seals the Doors shut" - This is a bit nitpicky, but it was originally referred to as the West Gate, and the Doors aren't exactly clear as being the same thing. Maybe "the Doors of Moria shut". It's a bit nitpicky, so if you have an objection to this, it's not a big deal.

Glossed.

• "The "Watcher in the Water", or just "the Watcher", is the only name Tolkien gave to this creature.[1][T 2]" - Maybe move this to the concept and creation section?

Moved.

• "and rupture of the Moria Gate" - Not sure if rupture is the right word. Rupture usually signifies putting a hole in something, but that's the opposite of what it did.

Tweaked.

• "that the original idea was to have the Watcher drag Bill the Pony under water" - I know who Bill the Pony is (one of my favorite characters in the whole series), but I'm not sure if a reader unfamiliar with Tolkien would be confused by this reference or not. FWIW, the Bill the Pony redirect was deleted when Middle-earth animals was deleted at AfD. Maybe an inobtrusive gloss here?

Yes, so many useful branches have been sawn off it's a miracle the tree is still standing. Glossed.

2.

• "The "Watcher in the Water", or just "the Watcher", is the only name Tolkien gave to this creature.[1][T 2]" - While I'm sure that Foster states this, the FOTR reference wouldn't really support this, as it would be a bit of an argument from silence, since FOTR is only one of many of Tolkien's works. I'd say the Foster ref alone would be sufficient.

Done.

• The archive of ref 5 takes me to the search.com searchbar page. Is there a way to get to the specific article?

Exact URL and publication details provided.

3.

• Some of the details can probably be added - The appearance after the damming of the Sirannon and the time diff between Balin and the Fellowship, which is mentioned in the lead and might be helpful to have glossed in the article.

Done.

• Old revisions of the page suggest that the critter was also in the Bakshi animated film, might be worth investigating and adding if verifiable.

I tried really hard to find a reliable source for it, and cut it when I couldn't. If anyone can do better, I'll bow to their superior skill.

4.

5.

6.

7.

• " J. E. A. Tyler suggests that the Watcher was a cold-drake: "...these dragons rely on their strength and speed alone (the creature that attacked the Ring-bearer near the Lake of Moria may have been one of these)." " - No action really needed on this, but the link to cold-drake isn't really helpful, since the target section says nothing about cold-drakes. The quote gives decent enough context for it to be understood though. Might be worth adding cold-drakes to the link site, but that's outside of the scope of this GA review.

Yes I should have a go at that.

• I'm not convinced it should be in Category:Male literary villains or Category:Male film villains, I don't remember anything about gender being specifically stated

Removed, we have no idea. Though there is some notion that powerful tentacled beasts do exemplify a sort of male energy...

• Also unsure of the see also links, Giant squid and Cthulhu seem to only be marginally related.

Removed: I'm happy without them; though they do have some kind of follow-up tangential relevance.

Placing on hold. Hog Farm (talk) 17:18, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Passing. Shorter article, but not a whole lot is actually known about this fellow, so it seems to cover it well. Hog Farm (talk) 19:01, 30 April 2020 (UTC)