Talk:Water bull/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: SlimVirgin (talk · contribs) 00:22, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

Rate	Attribute	Review Comment
1. Well-written:
	1a. the prose is clear, concise, and understandable to an appropriately broad audience; spelling and grammar are correct.	This is an interesting article, nicely written, presented and sourced. I've left some suggestions below.
	1b. it complies with the Manual of Style guidelines for lead sections, layout, words to watch, fiction, and list incorporation.
2. Verifiable with no original research:
	2a. it contains a list of all references (sources of information), presented in accordance with the layout style guideline.
	2b. reliable sources are cited inline. All content that could reasonably be challenged, except for plot summaries and that which summarizes cited content elsewhere in the article, must be cited no later than the end of the paragraph (or line if the content is not in prose).
	2c. it contains no original research.
3. Broad in its coverage:
	3a. it addresses the main aspects of the topic.
	3b. it stays focused on the topic without going into unnecessary detail (see summary style).
	4. Neutral: it represents viewpoints fairly and without editorial bias, giving due weight to each.
	5. Stable: it does not change significantly from day to day because of an ongoing edit war or content dispute.
6. Illustrated, if possible, by media such as images, video, or audio:
	6a. media are tagged with their copyright statuses, and valid non-free use rationales are provided for non-free content.	There are no images.
	6b. media are relevant to the topic, and have suitable captions.
	7. Overall assessment.

Review

Hi Sagaciousphil, a few copy-editing suggestions:

Lead

• I would say "mythological Scottish creature," rather than Scottish mythological creature"
• "It is known to reproduce" --> "said to reproduce"
• "Any offspring should be immediately destroyed" --> "The myth has it that any offspring ... or "According to the myth, any offspring ..."
• Link Scottish Gaelic on first reference.

• All done, I think. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• Perhaps consider adding to the lead that the water bull is amphibious and can shapeshift, per this source (p. 328). These seem to be key characteristics. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• Done. SagaciousPhil - Chat

Etymology

• "Edward Dwelly translates tarbh uisge ... from the Scottish Gaelic as meaning a "water bull ..." --> "Edward Dwelly translates tarbh uisge ... from the Scottish Gaelic as "water bull ..."

• Done. SagaciousPhil - Chat

Description and common attributes

• "It differs from the Manx tarroo ushtey which was more likely": comma before which
• "without bones"[8] whereas its Scottish counterpart": comma before whereas
• "purple coloured ears" --> purple-coloured ears
• "can be amiable[9] and sometimes helpful. They were also able to transform themselves ..." Best to use the same tense: "could be amiable and were also able to" or "can be amiable and are also able to"
• "Campbell noted an incident said to have taken placed on Islay" --> noted a story told on Islay
• "Campbell mentions variations on the theme such as the woman ...": comma before such as. Actually reading it again I would remove the sentence beginning "The storyteller was adamant this was a true tale ..." because it isn't a true tale, so explaining that it might not be true because there are inconsistent versions looks odd.

• All done, I think. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• I can barely understand the paragraph about the woman, the bull and the horse. Water bulls can shapeshift. A witch noticed a calf with strange ears and ordered that he be separated from the herd. A woman met an attractive man with seaweed in his hair, which meant he was a water horse who had shapeshifted (should the paragraph begin with water bulls being able to shapeshift if this is about a water horse doing it?). The witch noticed the woman's plight (what was her plight?) The witch released the water bull (in what sense release it?).

  Looking at the source, certain key points have been left out of the article (e.g. that the witch kept the calf locked up for seven years and that the woman was being chased).

• I've had a go at clarifying and tweaking. I also moved the first part to the end of the previous paragraph. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• I've had another go at clarifying this paragraph ... SagaciousPhil - Chat 18:40, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Capture and killing

• Consider adding that McCulloch described this in 1819. No need for quotation marks round tackle, though you could link it to Fishing tackle (or perhaps Block and tackle) if you want to explain it.

• Done - I linked to Block and tackle. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• I can't see the sixpence coins in the cited source on p. 37, but it's in MacCulloch on the same page as the previous sentence, in a footnote. Maybe the sources got mixed up?

• Do you mean ref #13 to Westwood and Kingshill? This shows a snippet of p. 37 covering the sixpences? SagaciousPhil - Chat

• Thanks, I can see it now here. (I must been looking at the wrong page before.) Westwood and Kingshill cite the MacCulloch footnote as their source, so it might be better to leave this with MacCulloch. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• Done. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• " A herd of cows could be tainted and suffer unfortunate consequences after a productive encounter with a water bull ..." Does that mean after mating?
• "by drowning however": leave out however

• Both done. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• The tainted sentence still isn't clear: "A herd of cows could be tainted and suffer unfortunate consequences after a productive mating with a water bull ..." Not clear what the taint was (simply having those calves?), or the unfortunate consequences. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:45, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• I had a problem with this and tried to work out exactly what the tainting was but couldn't find an answer. I don't know if you can access the MacKillop ref but he states: "Calves born with split ears have been fathered by the tarbh uisge and so should be killed at birth before they bring disaster to the herd." without elaborating any further and I couldn't find anything in any of the sources or stories. Then there is the flipside that others think they improved the herd. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• You could try something like: "According to James MacKillop, because calves born to cows that had mated with water bulls might bring disaster to the herd, they were supposed to be killed at birth; it was impossible to kill them by drowning, so other methods had to be used." SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:47, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks - I've added it SagaciousPhil - Chat

• And now given it another slight tweak - I used "sired by" but as that's a term I'm familiar with and don't find it odd, perhaps it may be better to use "fathered" (although that feels odd to me!). SagaciousPhil - Chat

Origins

• I would move this section to follow Etymology, or combine them into one section, Etymology and origins. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 02:32, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• I can see your point but we're beginning work on a few Scottish mythology articles and felt the present order of sections would be the most appropriate framework to use, so I'd prefer to keep the present order if that's okay? SagaciousPhil - Chat

• Yes, of course, that's fine. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 18:36, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• Thanks for reviewing! I've still a couple of the points raised to sort out and will continue later this morning. SagaciousPhil - Chat

• Sorry, I became distracted by other Wikipedia things today (we have an article at FAC) and now I'm about to have to sign off for the evening. I will come back to this first thing in the morning. Thank you for reviewing and your very helpful comments, I do appreciate it! SagaciousPhil - Chat 19:15, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• You're welcome, and there's no rush so please take as long as you need. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:47, 12 June 2014 (UTC)

• I've tweaked a little bit more now. I have searched everywhere to see if I could find a free image to use but unfortunately everything is just "ordinary" bulls rather than Water bulls SagaciousPhil - Chat 18:40, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I've done a light copy edit, only because it's faster than making suggestions here, but please feel free to revert. (I lost track of the ref for "and sometimes helpful".)

One more thing, then we're done. The article shifts a bit from present to past tense, and I wasn't sure what you wanted, so I didn't fix it. For example, in the lead "they cannot be killed by drowning" but "in northern areas the calves were considered to be of a superior quality."

Also, water cows are barely mentioned, so I moved the paragraph about them higher. It was sometimes unclear what the matings referred to. Where the article says the calves are often born dead, I assume you meant a water bull/ordinary cow mating, so I made that clearer. SlimVirgin ^(talk) 19:42, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you for that - it looks much better! I think I've caught all the tense anomalies now - it does get confusing as tales are sometimes in past tense. I'll have to try and check through all the refs as I can't immediately bring to mind where the "helpful" part came from - my initial reaction had been Westwood and Kingshill but they have it as "harmless" and "benign". SagaciousPhil - Chat 20:46, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

I think I'd probably write it in the past tense. I might start with "is a mythological Scottish creature" (though maybe I'd write that in the past tense too, not sure). I'd switch to past tense to describe the myth, because the article says belief in it persisted only until the last quarter of the 19th century. But it's a matter of preference.

Okay, that looks done. Again, it's an interesting article, so thank you for writing it! SlimVirgin ^(talk) 21:08, 13 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you - they have been/are fun to do - if a bit complicated at times. I appreciate all your hep with the review. SagaciousPhil - Chat 21:12, 13 June 2014 (UTC)