Talk:Weißer See (Berlin)

The name of the article is in German letters : Requested move 26 September 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Rotideypoc41352 (talk · contribs) 10:53, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

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Weißer See (Berlin) → White Lake (Berlin) – There is a problem with the name of this article, it is written with a letter that exists only in German the letter ß, which is not available on the keyboard of many editors Hanay (talk) 13:07, 26 September 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 19:48, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

There is a problem with the name of this article, it is written with a letter that exists only in German the letter ß, which is not available on the keyboard of many editors. I suggest the name White Lake (Berlin), or at least the name of the lake in German Weisser See (Berlin), but with English letters. Thanks Hanay (talk) 13:05, 25 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. The "ß" character is specfically allowed per WP:NCGER. Unless "White Lake" is consistently used in English-language reliable sources (WP:COMMONNAME), this should stay. 162 etc. (talk) 15:07, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

I did a Google search with the addition of the White Lake Berlin. Many results came up, here are 3 results:

1. White lake, white lake, Berlin, Germany
2. White-Lake-City - Berlin
3. A winterly round trip around the Weißen See (White Lake)

I traveled this month in Berlin and took many pictures of the White Lake. I uploaded to Commons through the mobile phone, but I couldn't find the category because I don't have the letter ß on the mobile phone keyboard (nor on the computer). For most people in the world, if that letter is not part of the alphabet in their native language, they don't have that letter. So what does it matter if this letter is confirmed? How does this help Wikipedia? Hanay (talk) 15:22, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

If your intention is to eliminate the "ß" in all Wikipedia article titles relating to German places, you can start a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (Germany). 162 etc. (talk) 18:49, 26 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose the only foreign name article made English on en.wp is the blonde Serbian former tennis player. No evidence that this lake has ever played tennis or is blonde or Serbian. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:41, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose per User:162 etc. Just because one character is difficult to type doesn't mean the entire title should be moved to a form which is much less used, if at all. Redirects are your friend. Weisser See (Berlin) can just as well redirect to this article, although the preferred spelling uses the letter ß. As an analogy, the Finnish city of Hämeenlinna should not be redirected to Hameenlinna just because the letter ä is difficult to type on an English keyboard layout. Again, redirects are your friend. And anyway, while I'm at it, this is a particularly amusing example as "Hämeenlinna" means "the castle of Tavastia" while "Hameenlinna" would mean "the castle of the skirt". JIP | Talk 00:43, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

It is quite amusing to read how all the opponents of my proposal do not address the real problem I raised and that is that the signal is not available. The reference does not solve the problem of the unavailable letter, certainly not in Commons where the name of the category there is the same as the name of the article in the English Wikipedia. I'm waiting to see who will give me a factual answer to the problem I raised. Hanay (talk) 06:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)

Try ALT+0223. 162 etc. (talk) 17:01, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

• Oppose. The common name is as at present. A redirect easily covers the letter issue. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:36, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
• Oppose, fine as is. There's other spelling variations that will take you to this page without ß.--Ortizesp (talk) 19:16, 28 September 2022 (UTC)
• Support per WP:NCGER, which has guidance that eliminates the "ß-ss" issue entirely:

  "Lakes: Ammersee, Chiemsee; but Lake Constance for Bodensee. It is also acceptable to use "Lake Town" e.g. Lake Brienz for Brienzersee and Lake Starnberg for Starnberger See."

  "Colours and points of compass: it is common to translate these e.g. White Main for Weißer Main or North Harz for Nordharz."

This would give "White Lake (Berlin)", as suggested by the nom, exactly as contemplated by the convention. Why make it harder on readers, when there is a common alternative recommended by WP guidance? Dohn joe (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2022 (UTC)

Because nobody calls it the White Lake! -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:35, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support per Dohn joe -- wP:USEENGLISH -- 65.92.247.226 (talk) 07:47, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
• Comment. Once again, some editors seem to be pushing the mistaken belief that WP:UE mandates the translation of every foreign term into English. It most certainly does not. -- Necrothesp (talk) 11:35, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
• Comment Adding to Necro's point, we generally do not translate a term if the untranslated term is more commonly used in English. We need discussion on whether "White Lake" is the most common way to refer to this lake in English. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 22:45, 2 October 2022 (UTC)

@Wikiexplorationandhelping: cannot see any reason why relisted. The proposal failed. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:51, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

In ictu oculi: I saw mixed consensus with opposes and supports. I was uncertain on whether closing it or not. Also, since Wikipedia is not a vote As such, I relisted, hoping for more uniform consensus. Wikiexplorationandhelping (talk) 17:16, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.