Talk:West Francia

Map size

At 320 pixels, the map contains writing that cannot be read. What was "too big" about 500 pixels? SmokeyJoe 04:59, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

The point of a thumbnail is that users can click through to see the full size image. The 500px thumbnail is both less clear and larger in filesize than the 513px/80kB original! We might as well just have the picture framed at its native dimensions, except that Wikipedia should be accessible to all users. Larger thumbnails consume both window real estate and bandwidth. At 500px, Image:843-870 Europe.jpg is 83kB to load, and takes up most of the browser window at 800x600px. At the default size of 180px, the same image takes up much less space and is less than 11kB to load.

The only compelling reason, I think, for specifying a thumbnail size instead of allowing the user to select a preference, is to make the image large enough to reveal relevant detail (WP:IMAGES#Image choice and placement). As a compromise, I have reduced the image to 320px (the same size as the map is reproduced here and here) and added some relevant text to the image caption. What do you think? Does the area coloured yellow but edged in green relate to the Treaty of Meerssen? I think a good caption would both replace the map legend and improve upon it. The full-size map would still be only a click away. — mholland 06:15, 18 March 2007 (UTC)

Name of France

This article says that France's name comes from the fact that the Capetians were originally Dukes of Île-de-France. How accurate is this? I was under the impression that the modern word France was derived from the Franks, or Francia, not the "Duchy" of Île-de-France.Rcduggan (talk) 02:37, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

Attestation?

What source actually calls that country "Francia occidentalis"? Or suggests that Aquitaine was included? Is it certain that this name is not applied anachronistically?24.5.224.13 (talk) 06:17, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

For one, see Treaty of Bonn, which uses rex Francorum occidentalium, a usage earlier employed by the Annales Mettenses priores for Theuderic III of Neustria. Later medieval sources, like Albert of Aix, Otto of Freising, Rahewin and Lupold von Bebenberg, definitely use Francia occidentalis. It (and West Francia) is certainly a scholarly convention today as well. Aquitaine was without doubt part of the West Frankish and French kingdoms, so when the term is used in that sense (as in the Bonn treaty or in Lupold, it would include Aquitaine). Srnec (talk) 14:03, 17 February 2014 (UTC)

I see, thanks Srnec. Since I realized that "Holy Roman Empire", "Kingdom of Germany", and "Rex Franciae" are commonly used anachronistically I've become very skeptical.24.5.224.13 (talk) 03:56, 18 February 2014 (UTC)

Elected Monarchy

Currently the article says that the monarchy was initially elective but is that true? My understanding was that the Frankish monarchy was initially hereditary under the Merovingians, then Pepin deposed Childeric III and was elected but then the monarchy was hereditary in the Carolingian line until maybe Charles the Fat's deposition which essentially made the monarchy elective. Emperor001 (talk) 04:13, 8 March 2016 (UTC)

The Carolingians continued to claim hereditary right in West Francia until after 987 (see Charles, Duke of Lower Lorraine). The counts of the Hispanic March, for example, did not generally recognise non-Carolingians (Odo, Ralph, Robert I, Hugh) until sometime after 987, by which point it didn't mean much. Likewise, there was always tension between hereditary right and electoral right in East Francia: one can clearly see the dynasties in the 10th–13th centuries. The high point of the electoral principle is after 1254 and before 1493. After that it's all Habsburgs. Election and inheritance were in tension throughout the Middle Ages. Even in England some barons elected Prince Louis of France in opposition to John, and King Stephen asserted his right to be king on the basis, in part, of his election by the clergy and people. Note also that Charles the Fat's death followed so quickly on his deposition that there is no evidence that his deposition by the East Frankish nobles was recognised in the West: they may have elected a successor only upon learning of his death. Srnec (talk) 03:11, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Maps

The two maps are in conflict. Ridpath's is the more accurate: Pamplona/Navarre was not part of Charles the Bald's kingdom. Srnec (talk) 14:44, 26 May 2016 (UTC)

Territorial Extent of West Francia and France

This is a perennially tricky subject and older maps, designed to give the true flavour of power in the context of ongoing conflicts, are often not helpful if the reader lacks context.

It is especially a problem in later periods, discussing the Plantagenet/Angevin dynasty's vast holdings in France in the 12th century, Edward III's southern holdings in the 14th century, or the Lancastrian occupation of the 15th century.

Only on rare occasions were any of these lands legally alienated from the Kingdom of France and put under their own, or English, or anyone else's free sovereignty, even as medievals understood that term. The Angevin empire's lands in France were fiefs, and Henry II was far more powerful than the French Crown, but those lands were part of the French realm. Edward III by the Treaty of Bretigny briefly held the Aquitaine as what we might consider a sovereign duchy, free of homage, but went on to claim the French Crown on the assumption his own lands were part of the realm he was claiming. Henry V and his son Henry VI claimed the throne of France and the English-held lands were not alienated from that realm when occupied.

In this earlier era, the passage in this article written as: "By the 10th century the rule of its kings was greatly reduced and it did not include Lorraine, Burgundy, Alsace and Provence, nor Normandy which was given to Normans in return for the end of raiding. " confuses two issues- the territorial extent of West Francia compared to later versions of France, and the vast autonomous power of the major feudal domains given in fief within the French realm.

At this time, and long after, West Francia/France had never included Lorraine, Burgundy, Alsace and Provence, as these had been part of the Middle Frankish/Lotharingian realms, independent as Burgundy, or part of East Francia.

Normandy happened to be given to Normans under Rollo as the price of peace, but it was given in fief, and it drifted into autonomy by the same processes as the other great counties/duchies within the realm. It did not cease to be part of West Francia.

With all that in mind I have reworked the affected sentence to this larger and more descriptive form:

West Francia did not include such future French holdings as Lorraine, Burgundy, Alsace and Provence in the east and southeast. In addition, by the 10th century the rule of its kings was greatly reduced even within the West Frankish realm by the increase in power of great territorial magnates over their large and usually territorially contiguous fiefs. This process was compounded by wars among those magnates, including against or alongside the Crown, and by foreign invasion. Notably, Normandy was given to the rule of Norse invaders under Rollo as a county and later duchy, and like other great fiefs became largely autonomous of, and more powerful than, the Crown. Random noter (talk) 18:17, 13 February 2019 (UTC)