Talk:Western Steppe Herders

Yamnaya or Khvalynsk culture?

Can anyone explain why modern Europeans are descended specifically from the Yamnaya and not, say, from the Khvalynsk culture? There are tens of Yamnaya Y-DNA known and not a single one has been confirmed in L51. However, the common ancestor of L51 and Z2103 lived at least 6100 years ago (probably more), which is much earlier than the Yamnaya. https://yfull.com/tree/R-L23/ --Yomal Sidoroff-Biarmskii (talk) 15:48, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

Hi there. Talk pages are for discussion of the article content and are not a discussion forum per WP:NOTFORUM. If you have some good secondary sources that support the change you wish to make, you should post those up and we can discuss them. Please make sure the sources meet WP:RS and are not just discussion fora or user generated content. Thanks. -- Sirfurboy🏄 (talk) 15:59, 4 March 2020 (UTC)

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Author-names

I use to refer to genetic studies with theirauthorname and date of publication. Much more convenient than "A study published in 20xx." Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 03:16, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Thank You. I very much agree. Both of us shall get this through! - In addition, sources have to be kept as references (mistakenly in the text with the extended Anthony note). 2A02:8108:9640:AC3:4988:2F74:9934:376F (talk) 15:07, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

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Physical appearance

"This has been confirmed by genetic studies of WSHs, who are found to have been much taller than Neolithic populations of Central Europe." - How that???2A02:8108:9640:AC3:4988:2F74:9934:376F (talk) 15:11, 4 January 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for your comment, I'll get to working on it. Hunan201p (talk) 22:11, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

Physical appearance: skin and hair color and racial taxonomy

For more information about recent edits to this page, see the discussion at Talk:Yamnaya_culture/Archive_1#Physical_characteristics_--_original_research regarding the essentially identical passage. Hunan201p (talk) 22:19, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

In sum, the claims made in the "physical appearance" section are not supported by the sources cited, which are also primary sources. It is widely accepted that primary sources should not be used for information like phenotypes and genes, hence, I will re-write these statements in the way that is reflected by secondary research from a variety of authors.

Furthermore, consistent with the recent edits of Tewdar and Joe Roe at Yamnaya, I will be removing the racial taxonomy passages from this article. Hunan201p (talk) 22:19, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

South Asian Hunter-Gatherers (AASI) admicture

An IP twice diff diff changed

WSHs are considered descended from Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (EHGs) who received some admixture from Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers (CHGs) during the Neolithic.

into

WSHs are considered descended from Eastern Hunter-Gatherers (EHGs) who received some admixture from South Asian Hunter-Gatherers (AASI) and Caucasus Hunter-Gatherers (CHGs) during the Neolithic.

edit-summary

? See Fig.2 (Figure 2). The population genetic chart clearly shows the contribution of South Asian Hunter-Gatherers (SAsia) towards Steppe pastoralists at 12%. What is the problem?

References

Anybody with some basic knowledge about this topic knows that this is weird; after checking the source, it's clear that fig.2 is not about admixture at the steppes, but admixture in South Asia. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 16:10, 17 July 2021 (UTC)

Yamnaya with KITLG SNP rs12821256

Where is the published reference for this assertion, so that I can add it to the article? Tewdar (talk) 10:35, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Also please note that this SNP is not a "switch" that "turns on" blonde hair. Tewdar (talk) 10:37, 9 August 2021 (UTC)

Don't bother, I found it. Tewdar (talk) 09:35, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Steppe ancestry in Brahmin and Bhumihar populations

I gave the paper "a try", but table S 86 of the supplementary material does not indicate that these populations have 50% steppe ancestry. Perhaps the IP might like to try again with a more accurate summary, and cite the intended article.  Tewdar  08:42, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Narasimhan et al. also find that steppe ancestry peaks among the Kalash. Which is what the sentence in the lede is about. So we probably don't need to reel off a list of all populations with high steppe ancestry here.  Tewdar  09:17, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Here's a link to the relevant database (table 5) if anyone wants to look it up.  Tewdar  10:01, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

@Tewdar and Austronesier: The "Brahmin" part was originally added by User:Krakkos when they created the article, as can be seen in the lead of this old version. The 50% steppe of Kalash was likely taken from the quote in Lazaridis, while the "Brahmin" part (without any (percentages) possibly as a combination of Narasimhan and Lazaridis. Narasimhan mentions Brahmins as a high steppe group in the paper multiple times, one of the quotes being → Steppe Ancestry in South Asia is Primarily from Males and Disproportionately High in Brahmins, while Lazaridis in the supplementary has a 'Brahmin Tiwari' sample set that has been calculated to have 44% steppe (compared to 50% of the Kalash). User:PeleoAquilis added a line on Kalash having a lower steppe of 30% per Narasimhan to the lead. Later, some IP from Maharashtra removed the 'Brahmin" part (possibly have to do with caste based POV) here. This is the chronology of things. The 'Brahmin'-part without the percentages is sourced and can be kept if necessary, but then again we only have Norwegians as far as Europe in represented in the lead. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 11:17, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

Yeah sure, I'm not disputing high levels of steppe ancestry in Brahmin populations, almost equal to Kalash in Narasimhan et al. But we're talking about the highest levels in the lede - as you say, we only mention Norwegians and not, say, Scottish people, as far as Europe goes. In both papers, Kalash populations are the highest MLBA steppe ancestry (~28% in Narasimhan et al.). I suppose we could mention a whole bunch of populations with "high" steppe ancestry in the lede?  Tewdar  11:25, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

How about something like, "in contemporary populations, Yamnaya-related ancestry peaks in northern European populations such as Norwegians, whoever... and some South Asian populations such as Kalash, Brahmin and Bhumihar groups"?  Tewdar  11:48, 18 June 2022 (UTC)

I believe mentioning one group is enough. Otherwise, we are going to have an unending list of groups and sub-groups. In other words, the current version is about OK. - Fylindfotberserk (talk) 12:41, 18 June 2022 (UTC)