Talk:Whare Ra

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Ok, who says that the BOTA is a Golden Dawn offshoot? I know there are simularities, but where it any of this information coming from? Zos 23:51, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

Thats why! This article was copied straight from answers.com! Arg....Zos 16:00, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

Um, no... quite the opposite. Answers com got its article fromus - it says so at the bottom of the answers.com page. Grutness...wha? 06:33, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

Oh crap, ok. hehehe Zos 06:37, 3 July 2006 (UTC)

<For Editors> Zoe.. BOTA was founded by PF Case who was a Golden Dawn hierophant (Alpha Omega). He did this after leaving the Golden Dawn.. there are many similarities but he removed most of the Enochian magicks (see Dr John Dee) from the corpus. There are plenty references around. - Jean de Cabalis.

Smaragdum Thallasses Temple

I wasnt aware that the Whare Ra was the same as the Smaragdum Thallasses Temple. If I had a source that said it, I can add more to this article, because, as of right now, I cant seem to find anyone talking about the whare ra. I may have to order a book from amazon, if one exists. But I'll keep digging :) Zos 15:56, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

<For Editor's> Zoe .. Yes one and the same. If you want references see 'Islands of the Dawn, the story of alternative spirituality in New Zealand' by Professor Robert S. Ellwood which gives a good academic history. Pat Zalewski will also be able to provide a good history as well - signed Jean de Cabalis.

Whare Atua Temple

Hi Jeandecabalis. Thank you for your addition to the Whare Ra Article - I see you have contributed in the past.

I would however like to raise some concerns I have with your recent editing of the article: 1. When I overhauled the article, I was careful not to mention any contemporary groups etc, so as not to encourage self advertising and pointless political debate. I do not think it relevant to include modern groups into this article in this way. Instead these modern groups can start their own Wiki page and link to the Whare Ra article. Lets keep politics out of it and simply record history. 2. You removed the reference to no known groups coming from the Salt line of initiation. Does this mean that you have knowledge of such a group? By doing so you imply that you represent the Salt line of initiation. Is this the case? Are you able to prove this by charter or even a letter? I see there has already been some pushing and shoving in the past history of the article, including an edit saying that you did not receive initiation. 3. Your addition reads like self advertising, for both yourself and Pat Zalewski. 4. Preferring this to be a purely a historical article, I don't think it is acceptable to have Whare Ra Golden Dawn together. The Golden Dawn ceased to exist circa 1900.

In essence, I do not agree with your additions and feel they are better removed and placed on a separate article to do with Whare Atua Temple etc.

Antiquarian.

Neither Jean de Cabilis nor Zalewski have chartered temples under the Stella Matutina, although they have, I believe, received initiations in the Golden Dawn system. Since there are others who could lay similar claims to "continuing the Whare Ra Golden Dawn tradition", and since the exact nature of that "tradition" is a bit vaguely stated (I understand it's a chain of initiations, but not a chain of charters), and most importantly since there is no verifiable documentation for other WP editors to check the claims against, if would be better to follow Antiquarian's advice stated above in point number 1. Fuzzypeg☻ 06:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)

To: Antiquarian

Antiquarian

You reasons are understood, though your information is incorrect. I invite you to membership whare.atua.temple.jeandecabalis.org once you are given access you will be able to see plenty of scans of material etc etc.. and you can make up your own mind. Providing you agree not to publish nor make known the materials. Fuzzypeg i know you are more interested in Wicca, but the invite also extends to yourself. Let me know directly, if you are interested in seeing documentations.

Jean

Hi Jean. Unfortunately regardless of what we can confirm for ourselves personally, Wikipedia policy is that all information given in articles needs to be attributable to some publicly available source. Individual editors privately "checking out" the truth of some statement just doesn't cut it. Any reader of the article should be able to follow the references given and confirm for themselves. Now I'm not quite sure what you're trying to convince us of, whether it be that there is initiatory succession (I personally believe there is) or that there is chartered succession (everything I've been told suggests this is very unlikely). But regardless of this, without publicly available and reliable sources to back your information up, there's little we can do, and my opinion expressed above remains unchanged. Fuzzypeg☻ 00:54, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jean, how may I contact you? Antiquarian

my address is: leonard.stevens @ rocketmail dot com (2012)

Fuzzypeg

Thanks Fuzzypeg: It was not my intention to make any claims for myself; but to simply offering proof that Frank Salt initiatory succession did indeed continued. Regrettably such materials are private and i am cannot release them the public at large. Nevertheless Frank Salt chartered line does continue via Tony Fuller in the United Kingdom. New evidence will be forthcoming in time. There is vague reference in Darcy Kuntz Chronological History of the Golden Dawn of this.

Modern Authors

Hi Morgan, I had originally put in references to Zalewski, but decided to edit these out of the body of the article as they really add nothing to what is essentially a historical article. Instead, I thought the book references to Zalewski and Ellwood at the bottom of the article would be sufficient to provide further avenues of enquiry. The sentence on Zalewski as I had originally edited, and later removed and re submitted by you, reads too much like an advertisement. If Zalewski had in fact been a member of Whare Ra, I might take a different view. Antiquarian —Preceding comment was added at 21:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Antiquarian's reasoning sounds right to me. The info's available in the footnotes. Doesn't need to be explicitly stated in the article. Fuzzypeg★ 21:21, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Greetings, I totally agree with you both about the Zalewski stuff. I wasn't totally happy with that sentence myself, but I originally put it back because I think it is important to connect Zalewski to Whare Ra, as he is one of the few remaining practitioners in that stream. I mustn't have noticed he was mentioned in the references, which is entirely adequate. Sorry about that. Morgan Leigh | Talk 00:14, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Huh? Someone removed that paragraph, citing this discussion on the talk page, and you reverted it, reinstating the paragraph. You said in the edit comment that you couldn't find any mention of that information or its proposed removal in the the talk page, but what about your comment directly above? Am I missing something here? Can we remove that paragraph or not? Fuzzypeg★ 21:21, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Fuzzypeg, weird. I don't understand either :) In my defense I can only say that I had just driven for sixteen hours straight that day. Probably just discombobulated. But as I write this I find that I might have changed my mind about totally removing it. It might be nice to have a paragraph about the scholarship re Whare Ra because it is one of the least well known incarnations of the Golden Dawn stream... I'll leave it up to you. Morgan Leigh | Talk 04:46, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Hi Morgan and Fuzzypeg, after due consideration, I still believe that the paragraph does not add to the article. It would be favouritism (and in my view advertising) to only mention just two authors, and to add the other authors who also documented Whare Ra to the same paragraph seems like a total duplication of the references section. Hence I have removed it again. Antiquarian Talk —Preceding comment was added at 19:53, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Use of Descriptor "Magical"

Having thought about this for a while I would like to drop the current descriptor "magical" being used to describe the Order of the Stella Matutina in reference to Whare Ra. My reasoning being that this is only one descriptor that could be used, and it could be argued that other descriptors could be just as relevant e.g. mystical, hermetic, esoteric etc. In addition, having known a few members of 'Whare Ra', I doubt that they ever would have described the Order as "magical". Antiquarian —Preceding undated comment added 05:23, 19 May 2011 (UTC).

@Antiqurianresearcher. Frank Salt certainly regarded the Golden Dawn as a magical system when he taught me. _ Jean de Cabalis 31-Aug-12 To quote Frank Salt, (who was a chief of the Whare Ra temple admitted 1936 btw): "In a state of darkness these things are evidenced in the Golden Dawn Neophyte Ritual, as is the total process of 'Enlightenment', the way of the soul. All our ceremonial reflects the problem of the soul in the process of completing the Incarnation of Spirit. In this sense our rituals are truly 'magical' in that through them the soul may touch the mind and we 'enter the Light' in full normal daily consciousness." from for Accepted Members of the Order. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.74.59.25 (talk) 08:29, 31 August 2012 (UTC) and to quote Wynn Westcott the co-founder of the Golden Dawn ""The Order of the Golden Dawn, in the Outer is a Hermetic Society whose members are taught the principles of Occult Science and the Magic of Hermes." eoq. - Jean. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 121.74.59.25 (talk) 06:11, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

I have to concur with the above that magical is in fact a very apt descriptor for the Stella Matutina. It also seems sensible seeing the Stella Matutina page uses the same descriptor. I have replaced magical order in the text. Morgan Leigh | Talk 03:58, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

I continue to disagree, on the basis of the point I raised above that other descriptors are just as, or more apt. However, my view is only one view, and I am happy to leave the descriptor as replaced until the wiki community decides otherwise. Thank you both for your contributions to this wiki. Antiquarian Talk —Preceding undated comment added 22:54, 15 May 2013 (UTC)

Te Mata times

Greetings User:Antiquarian. You recently cited a book (The Havelock Work) published by the Te Mata Times. I have done a bit of a search and can find no trace of this book. Can you please provide more information about it so I can try to track it down to verify the reference? Perhaps the isbn might help? I'd love to see this book for my own evil purposes as well. Morgan Leigh | Talk 03:15, 4 August 2013 (UTC)

Greetings Morgan Leigh, the "Te Mata Times" was the local newspaper of Havelock North (1975-1984). Try searching the NZ Libraries Catalogue - http://nzlc.natlib.govt.nz and ask for a copy. I understand it was one of the main sources for Ellwood’s Islands of the Dawn. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Antiquarian (talk • contribs) 04:09, 5 August 2013 (UTC)