Talk:Where the Angels Fall

Requested move 4 November 2023

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Elli (talk | contribs) 06:17, 11 November 2023 (UTC)

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Where The Angels Fall → Where the Angels Fall – This should be a non-controversial move per MOS:TITLECAPS but because of this RfD, I thought it best to go the route of a formal RM. Starcheerspeaksnewslostwars^{Talk to me} 04:28, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Hi. I'm the person who started the article. I don't know why I capitalized it this way. Full support. SupremeLordBagel (Talk) 06:15, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

• Move (given the RfD a round-robin move is probably cleanest). The band's official website consistently spells it with a capital T, as do about half the sources in the article but the other half of the sources lowercase it. However my understanding of the manual of style is that exceptions would require the overwhelming majority of reliable sources to consistently use a different style and that is not the case here. Thryduulf (talk) 12:24, 4 November 2023 (UTC)

Do I have permission to move the article? I don't know what it looks like when a discussion is formally closed, so I'm not sure if it's appropriate to move it yet, but it seems as though the consensus is that moving is the best course of action. SupremeLordBagel (Talk) 04:33, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Just wait. An uninvolved admin or page mover will be along when its been 7 days since the nomination to formally close it and implement the closure if the consensus is to move. You should never close discussions which you started or commented on. Thryduulf (talk) 11:01, 6 November 2023 (UTC)

Move: Could've and should've been a WP:Technical move request. That RfD is silly and also could've been done boldly without discussion. QuietHere (talk | contributions) 11:52, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

• Move Obviously uncontroversial. This should be a WP:SNOW close.—ShelfSkewed Talk 07:02, 8 November 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Songs added to redirects, disambiguation pages and hatnotes

Redirects – "Thunder Rumbles" • "Money Coming My Way" • "Be with You Again" • "West Sun" • "Old Dog, New Trick"

Disambiguations – "Boom Boom" • "Deeper" • "Owl" • "Dance the Night Away" • "Rock 'n' Roll" • "Coming Back Again" • "Walls"

Hatnotes – "Oh Mercy" • "Drift Away" SupremeLordBagel (talk) 05:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Where the Angels Fall/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Nominator: SupremeLordBagel (talk · contribs) 06:45, 21 November 2023 (UTC)

Reviewer: The Sharpest Lives (talk · contribs) 22:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• Hey! I'm Sam. I'm excited to start reviewing your nomination! The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 22:36, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  Initial comments: good job! This is a well-written article. I'm looking through for any possible errors. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 22:51, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  I'm performing a source check currently to verify that there is no original research. Will be back soon. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 23:07, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

• Hey- we're getting close. I want to let you know I requested a mentorship for this GAN because I wanted to make sure I'm doing everything correctly. Feel free to check out their comments here. PSA raises some good notes. I already updated the NFUR for the song sample, but I haven't changed anything in the caption. PSA says that "most ambitious" isn't a very helpful descriptor- so maybe you could cite a review that notes its' sound? Ex) Critics noted "Owl" for its' blend of this and that. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 05:53, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

  PSA also noted the two uses of "It was announced". (Both are under §Background and recording) The first could be changed to "Hull-Brown, Angus and Khadiwala also announced in September that they would leave the band after a final set of shows..." while the second could be changed to "On 6 September 2022, the independent management company Lemon Tree Music announced that they would sign with the Cat Empire." The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 06:02, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

 Semi-done Fixed overuse of "it was announced" per your suggestions. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 08:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

I looked at the references for the "Owl" sample: you could note its African influences (per ref 1) and its large orchestration (per both refs). Something like: Critics, along with the band themselves, noted "Owl" for its African influences and large orchestration. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 17:39, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done Thank you! SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 00:05, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Good already

1. Both the album cover and the song sample have non-free use rationales, and all images pertain to the topic and have precise captions.
2. There are no edit wars, as SupremeLordBagel (talk · contribs) seems to be pretty much the only editor.
3. Grammar, writing, etc. is good. The article was written in a neutral tone.
4. The article stays within scope and goes into detail on the background, composition, touring, etc.

Fixes

Sourcing

• I noticed that there are quite a few primary sources (Instagram, YouTube, Facebook, etc). Could you find secondary sources for these claims? I ran some cleanup scripts on the page, and it automatically tagged the primary sources with {{Primary source inline}}. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 23:18, 4 June 2024 (UTC)

  This is my main concern at the moment. There are at least two claims with the tag, and I think you should at least find a secondary source for the ABC Radio National claim (section: Release and promotion), but the documentary claim just needs tweaking. Change it from Over August and September, a four-part documentary on the album's recording was released. to something like From August to September band released a four–part documentary on Facebook documenting the album's recording process. That way the using Facebook as a source is more valid (in my opinion). Though- the sentence structure may need to be changed. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 15:24, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 Semi-done Reworded documentary claim per your suggestion. I'm working on finding a secondary source for the ABC Radio National claim, but I can't find anything - only other radio appearances later in the year. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 20:50, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I tried looking for a source, but couldn't find one. It might be better to just remove it. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 03:07, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done That was my thought too. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:30, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• The release of the album came more than four and a half years after their previous album, Stolen Diamonds (2019), the longest gap between their albums to date. Is there a source saying this specifically? If not it seems like OR. It is not verified in the body, so I would go ahead (if no sources can be found) to change it to something like "Where the Angels Fall was released four and a half years after their previous album, Stolen Diamonds (2019).". The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 02:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:12, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• The Touring section of the article cites the Cat Empire homepage multiple times, but I'm not seeing any actual content on that page, except for a blinking eye. Otherwise, it appears there were only 5 shows on the Australian leg of the tour, per Music Feeds. Also, the sourcing is pretty sparse in that section. Any sources to verify the North American shows? The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 02:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

The information on the Cat Empire homepage is contained underneath the tour header. I noticed that there were dates on the band's website that weren't listed on the Music Feeds article, which was why I used their website as a reference. I'll admit that the band's website is definitely a primary source, so I might try to find one that's a little more independent. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:19, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing that out. I recommend just searching "cat empire australia six shows" or something similar on google to find a source. I recommend using this search engine to find reliable sources- it's been really helpful for me in the past. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 16:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 Semi-done I've found a better source for the six Australian shows. I'm looking for sources for the North American shows. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 10:27, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

I'm looking for sources right now. I found one that might be helpful: Do 617 - The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 14:48, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done The North American shows are now all sourced. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 00:18, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

• I'm not finding a source for the quote "When we came to record the album, I wanted to think about the Cat Empire more as a community of musicians than just a like-for-like replacement of band members. [...] It was really important for us to treat every song like a world of its own, and so we brought in a lot of musicians to create and reflect that". It isn't from the Rolling Stone source referenced below, so is there another place you got the quote from? The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 03:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done This quote is from the Audio Technology interview. I wasn't quite as experienced with reference formatting when I wrote this article - thanks for catching that! SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks for addressing my previous concerns! This is my first GA review, so I'm trying to look for the fine details. Anyways, I found another claim that needs a source: The title of the album is taken from a line in the second verse, "I like the space 'tween words where the angels fall". I am sure it's true, but I think it needs to be sourced. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 12:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

  I noticed you just did it- thanks! The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 02:56, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

• The Te Ao Māori News ref is down. I ran a bot on the page, which generated an archive link. You might want to look into possibly dead refs here and mark them with URL Status=dead. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 14:40, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

   Done Went ahead and did it. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 15:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• In the "Composition" section, sourcing is pretty sparse in the second paragraph. It appears that most of it is based off of the Music Feeds source though, so no worries. I would just reuse the citation earlier as well, perhaps insert it after the claim "Boom Boom" was written about "a city of music reemerging," in the wake of the COVID-19 lockdowns of 2020 and 2021, to provide proper sourcing for the quote. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 14:51, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

   Done I also added the citation there. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 15:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Possible copyright violation: A copyvio detector found a lot of connections between the article and one of its sources. Don't worry! You're not going to be fined or anything. We probably just need to directly quote less and paraphrase more, while avoiding close paraphrasing. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 17:22, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

  You're fine now: the same tool didn't find any possible copyvios. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 23:47, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Text

• The caption for the "Owl" sample seems a little redundant. Perhaps change "A sample of the Cat Empire's "Owl"; some critics, and the band themselves, noted the song for being one of their most ambitious". to something along the lines of "Critics, along with the band themselves, noted "Owl" as one of the band's most ambitious". That may need to be clarified as well because I'm not really sure what ambitious means in this context. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 01:56, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done Changed to "Critics, along with the band themselves, noted "Owl" as one of the band's most ambitious songs." SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 09:37, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Near the end of the Background and recording section, there are two quotes from Riebl. It is a little unnatural reading to me to have the one after the other, so perhaps open the last paragraph with paraphrasing the "nine horn players" quote. We want to avoid overquoting. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 03:16, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done Changed to "The band avoided double tracking during recording, instead choosing to bring in more players." SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 20:49, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• Consider changing the section "Composition and sound" to simply "Composition" to avoid being redundant. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 13:48, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

   Done It was such a small fix that I went ahead and did it. If you do not agree with that suggestion feel free to let me know. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 15:09, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Are there any more reviews for the Critical reception section? It looks fine, I'm just wondering if it's on anything like AnyDecentMusic?, Metacritic, Allmusic, etc. Otherwise that section is done. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 14:08, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry, I haven't been able to find any other reviews - this was actually the main difficulty I had when I originally wrote the article. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 10:42, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

You're good! I'm not going to fail this just because of the lack of reviews, I promise. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 13:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• The charts section is missing a header. Perhaps add the line |+Weekly chart performance for ''Where the Angels Fall'' to the chart – per MOS:TABLECAPTION. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 14:22, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

   Done I went ahead and did it, to be bold. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 15:07, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

• Riebl stated that "we made an album in the EGREM studios in Havana. [...] does he state that the album is Two Shoes? It also seems like an easter egg. I'd just remove the link from "an album" to Two Shoes and leave it as plain text. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 15:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)

I might actually remove the quote and reword this sentence, so as to prevent overquoting (and for clarity). SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 00:30, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

Sounds good to me! The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 00:39, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done Changed to "Riebl stated that the band was attempting to recapture the "roominess" of their previous recordings at EGREM Studios." SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 01:20, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• The album cover – and all other images as well – need alt text for accessibility. (for people with screen readers or visual impairments, etc.) See MOS:ALT for guidelines / instructions. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 16:44, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

   Done – I went ahead and did it so you can focus on my other suggestions. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 17:15, 6 June 2024 (UTC)

• Per my mentorship mentioned above, PSA mentioned the lead. It needs info about the music itself. All you need to do is summarize the composition section and put it in the lead basically. Make sure to double check WP:LEAD if you need. + PSA suggests paraphrasing more in the reviews section rather than direct quoting. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 06:14, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done – Added composition info to lead section. I've shortened one quote and paraphrased another, but I wasn't sure what to do with the others. If you have any suggestions on how to further paraphrase the reviews, please let me know! SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 07:29, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

I think the quote but said that "happiness can get tiring, believe it or not, and some euphoric episodes, such as "Coming Back Again" become rather showy and excessive" can be shortened. Perhaps to but called the album tiring on songs like "Coming Back Again", which "[became] rather showy and excessive". Other than that the section looks fine. The Sharpest Lives (the deadliest to lead) 16:11, 8 June 2024 (UTC)

 Done – SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 00:22, 9 June 2024 (UTC)

Criteria

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable, as shown by a source spot-check.

   a (reference section): b (inline citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have non-free use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Hey man im josh talk 19:26, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

The Cat Empire performing live

• ... that the Cat Empire's (pictured) 2023 album Where the Angels Fall features no less than 75 musicians and 49 instruments?
• ALT1 ... that the Cat Empire's (pictured) 2023 album Where the Angels Fall features contributions from 75 musicians and 49 instruments?
• ALT1a ... that the Cat Empire's 2023 album Where the Angels Fall features contributions from 75 musicians and 49 instruments?

• Source: "Their first album together, released in August, features 75 musicians and 49 instruments in total."

• Reviewed:

Improved to Good Article status by SupremeLordBagel (talk). Number of QPQs required: 0. Nominator has less than 5 past nominations.

SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:00, 9 June 2024 (UTC).

• Review:

• New enough - promoted to GA same day as nomination;
• Long enough - 10,948 characters;
• QPQ Check - not needed;
• Hook is referenced to a secondary source clearly cited in the article, and source has a clear editorial policy;
• Hook is interesting - remarkable number of musicians and instruments;
• Article is presentable;
• Copyvio is clear "Violation Unlikely", most comparison hits are in quotes;
• The picture is clear and in the article;
• However - while the picture states it is freely licenced, it has been sourced to a facebook post by two people (who retain ownership of the intellectual property per [1]). It is therefore not wholly clear it is freely licenced per WP:IUPC;
• Also - the hook needs the rather subjective text "no less than" removed to something more neutral - e.g. "features contributions from", and the article has 2-3 sentences that need citations.
• This can nearly be approved without the picture. Alternatively to approve this nom for the main page with the picture, I recommend proof "that the copyright holder has released the image under an acceptable free license". Furthermore please resolve the (relatively minor) hook and citation issues. ResonantDis_tortion 16:10, 10 June 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks for your comments! This picture was sourced from the comments of a Facebook post in a fan community for the Cat Empire. In that post, I requested images of the band on tour, making it clear that I was to use them in a Wikipedia article. Would a screenshot of this post and some of the comments be sufficient proof that this image is freely licensed? SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 04:01, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

• Thanks - that's good but I suggest we get this tighter if the image is to go on the main page. Please see this section in the commons VRT [2]. ResonantDis_tortion 05:15, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll work on contacting the original photographers and get back to you when I can. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 09:18, 11 June 2024 (UTC)

Sorry that I haven't replied for a while! I think it's more hassle than it's worth to include the image. We'll go ahead without it. SupremeLordBagel (talk to me) 10:58, 13 June 2024 (UTC)

Understood and noted, though the licencing on the respective images in the article evidently still need resolution. To get this approved for the hook only can you please (a) create an ALT1a without the "(pictured)" text, and (b) resolve the uncited statements within the article, i.e. "It is also the band's first release since The Cat Empire (2003) to be produced by Andy Baldwin" and "The song debuted at No. 1 on the AMRAP Metro Charts, and stayed in that position for two weeks." ResonantDis_tortion 14:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)  Done

for ALT1a. Note: picture not approved. ResonantDis_tortion 23:10, 13 June 2024 (UTC)