Talk:White-tailed spider

Necrotising Arachnidism?

Would necrotising arachnidism be the same as arachnogenic necrosis? If so, we could change the necrotising arachnidism link to point at Necrosis#Arachnogenic_necrosis, which actually exists. BigNate37 23:16, 9 July 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Arachnidism means having long arms and legs like a spider.... see Marfan Syndrome. --Amandajm 15:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Good point, though I think this section belongs under White Tail Spider article. CitizenofEarth001 (talk) 20:08, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

Necrosis section is very opinionated. A single test of 130 cases is not enough to be conclusive... That's like testing 500 mosquito bites and since nobody got dengue fever you conclude that mosquitoes do not cause it. More study needs to be done. --oticon6 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.74.11.223 (talk) 01:35, 7 February 2009 (UTC)

I agree with the second comment re "opinionated".

This is long response. I think this article is likely to be referenced by people suspecting they have been bitten by this spider, so what is presented is important. The current presentations is of concern re current referenced work the articles consequent conclusion and presentation. There is grey area on what is accurate, objective, verifiable. I would like to see changes that reflect the uncertainty more, yet I am not sure if I can re need to use referenced sources not opinion. Hence the below long laying out of the issues as I see them and my basis for concern and challenge to the current article's conclusion.

I have spoken directly with author of one of the studies quoted, though not on the issue of White Tail spiders specifically. I was at the time providing samples of another spider species from the Armidale, Glen Innes Northern Tablelands area of NSW Australia, namely funnel web spiders, later identified as the species Hadronyche walkeri.

At the time I was collected funnel webs, I was struck by the number of reports of ulceration from White Tail Spider bites that people also talked about. I have also spoken since to people working in local aged care facilities in this area, and they report many white tail spider bites on residents consistent with the characteristics of a bite as described below.

I have been bitten several times by white tail spiders, or at least I hold high confidence that was the spider. I have been bitten probably about half a dozen times over 15 years.

A characteristic of a white tail spider bite is that you do not feel anything at the time. The bite in my cases first becomes apparent looking like a mosquito bite and itchy the next day. Over the next few days it does not resolve like a mosquito bite normally does, rather it persists, expands in size, then develops little blisters. The blisters slowly multiply and expand as does the bite site and infection process. (Personal pics taken at one time). For some others the response is much more dramatic and immediate, minutes and hours to a major reaction. In my case the bite sites often on the knees, though also feet, arms, elbows and hands. Local doctors inspecting the bites confirm likely a white tail spider bite. Appearance consistent with photos located on the web of white tail spider bites.

On the occasions of receiving these bites I have often found at the time a white tail spider either in the bedding or walking around on top of the bedding, or in the bed clothing worn. I have not had these kind of bites at times when I have not found white tails spiders around in the immediate proximity. I note this does not provide 100% certainty, as I have not yet seen one in the process of biting me to confirm an actual, 100%, yes that is the spider that bit me, and yes it was exactly at the place where these itchy marks have since occurred in following days. But I can be about as sure as is likely in practice.

In this region I find these spiders typically appear and move around such that they are likely to end up in clothing and bedding around late spring, summer, to early autumn months. So the warmer months of the year (southern hemisphere). The process of gradual expansion and deterioration of a bite in my case only stopped by a treatment of applying alcohol in the form of methylated spirits. I figured this may work as a treatment as alcohol is a solvent or denaturing agent for many organic substances. I thought it may break down whatever the enzyme or toxin was that is associated with these bites and progression to necrosis. So far it has worked every time for an ongoing slow expansion and deterioration of the bite site for several days to a few weeks, then with application of methylated spirits a clear change in the situation to a resolution of the bite site from that point onwards over the next several days.

Some years ago I spoke on local radio (Australian Broadcasting Corporation) to relay my observations from those in the community on white tail spider bites and the solution to apply methylated spirits (alcohol). Within a week or two I had two local people recognise my voice and approach me to thank me. When they applied methylated spirits to a slow and ongoing deteriorating (suspected) white tail spider bite of some several weeks to months, they reported it cleared up quickly and were hence most thankful that I spoke on radio.

In all these regards, my personal experience, reports of others, and including this treatment, I find the observed situation very different to the authoritative view. As for my confidence of the two key authorative published works, I do not questioning the general skills and competency of these professionals but rather the level of study undertaken to date and the conclusions drawn.

Returning now to the quoted authorative published papers. It was clear from others I spoke to in the community that only a small portion of white tail bites lead to full necrosis. Most do prove problematic and source of concern for many weeks to months. Of these most in time eventually do slowly heal as the body gets on top of the process and the person bitten tries various things from ointments to tea tree oil to various antibiotic treatments from seeing their doctor.

One of the thoughts I have considered is that such progression to necrosis is that it may depend on what the white tail spider had previously fed upon and how recently and possibly for how long it was feeding sucking or biting on the person. It could well be that the white tail spider passes on digestive enzymes from a previous spider it has eaten, and the level of activity to produce necrosis in a bite site dependent on how recent that last meal was or the spider species eaten or a combination. Alternatively or additionally necrosis potential may be related to local variation in the species, what they carry or predate upon, or variations in genetics and vulnerability of the person bitten.

In terms of current authorative opinion on spider bites, I note that a doctor in recent years at the local hospital emergency unit when confronted by a life threatening funnel web spider bite (with patient seeing the funnel web spider, with fangs inbedded, hanging off her finger, and knowing what the local funnel web spiders look like) 'authoritatively' refused to accept the patients presentation and concern on the basis that their professional view was that there are no funnel webs in this region, or if there were they were not venomous like the Sydney species. This view and request to consider application of the antidote only finally altered with the successful phoning of a local university entymologist to correct their professional misunderstanding. A similar event happened at the same casualty to a previous person bitten a decade earlier by a funnel web. My point: with few published studies, the authorative opinion had remain unchanged, was wrong, and was putting lives at risk.

I find the outright dismissal of necrosis generating from white tail spider bites by current authorative sources particularly distressing as I am no longer free or allowed on radio to mention the solution in view of these other sources, now published, for legal reasons. I am not a qualified researcher, though I think few if any researcher has had exposure to the local anecdotal evidence as I have been.

I have not yet made any changes to this wikipedia article as I can not source an official reference to support what I believe is a more correct understanding, as possibly life saving as that understanding and careful reflection of local and anecdotal experience may be.

As for the studies to date, I can only agree that the sample of 100 or so people was likely insufficient to determine and be inclusive of the cases that go to a more fully serious, sometimes limb removing, necrosis over several months. It would seem to assume all white tail spider bites progress the same to necrosis if there is any necrosis from white tail spider bites at all. All or none. There would be thousands of white tail bites in this region per year with less than 1% or less proceeding to full life threatening necrosis. Research to determine what the factors may be for that fewer than 1% are unlikely at this time in view of current published views.

As I have observed in some other arenas (Chronic Fatigue Syndrome comes to mind) sometimes the quest to be very rational and professional can be in overdrive, and itself become a source of loss of objectivity. In this case here, two studies verses anecdotal but direct independent observations of many. For controversial issues not easily directly observable or repeatable in the lab (I mean really how often can people identify a spider that bit them? Most times you can not even find it.. ) require more than two studies to resolve the controversy definitively.

CitizenofEarth001 (talk) 20:08, 22 July 2014 (UTC)

As a victim of a 'confirm' white tail bite (I saw the spider which was dead within cm of the bite site) which occured while alseep on our leather couch (initially was minor, within a day became a major issue) - spending 4 weeks recovering in hospital in sever pain and with muscle complications (knee down to ankle my muscles looked like they gradually got poisoned over about 4 days then came good weeks later - I'm not medical, but I'm sure the scientist would write my case off as something else, when clearly from doctors it was the bite, which then caused complications - either way the bite was the CAUSE of the complications, even if the scientist in the study takes the blame away from the spider, the spider started the chain of events - also causing clotting of veins in that leg ONLY - i to this day still have issues due to that years later), then a further 3 weeks with a portable anti-biotic drip attached after that, I can confirm that these spiders DO cause significant injury. There is scans showing sacks of venom inside my knee where I was bitten. Now while there is arguments by 'so called' research to argue this is not true, and that blame by vic health (the most unreliable health department on the planet), there is significant enough evidence in my case to confidently say that the discoloration of my leg and severe pain for 3-4 weeks was directly caused by a bite by a white tail spider. I did not have ulceration, but had a dark

I believe it is actually negligent to say it's 'rare' to see ulceration, when most of the people I have seen with bites from white tails have this ulceration. I know this is not 'scientific', but I have medical scans, reports and documentation to say that this research cited here is 'undercooked' and 'lazy' leaving this article to make people believe these spiders are at no risk. There seems to be only ONE study people cite and this study seems to spread blame, without 'hard' facts - aka the scientists beliefs overwhelm the science itself in the study, and IMHO the study should be unpublished. It's not science, it's psudoscience to get published. It would be very easy to get over 1000 bite victims to partipate in a study as bites are frequent and hopsitalisation is not uncommon, especially for the very painful cases such as mine.

Anyway I just had to comment, as my experience, and feedback from doctors contradicts what this study found. It seems the study was too limited to be useful and the outcome was pre-determined IHMO. These spiders are dangerous, and this and other articles need to make sure that is clear, regardless of limited studies or hype by media. There is clear evidence of harm, to say 'techincally it's something else' caused by a bite. You can't die from covid-19,but it can lead to pneumonia leading to death - so should we say covid-19 is not harmful at all? This study cited would conclude that = really bad science.

Thanks for reading.

dawesi (talk) 23:25, 7 December 2020 (UTC)

Picture of infection allegedly caused by white-tailed spider bite

An alleged bite of the white-tailed spider, resulting in a pus-filled blister.

I removed this image from the article as no evidence, let alone proof, is presented for this being caused by a white-tailed spider bite. Anecdotal reports of this nature have been debunked by Isbister & Gray. Nurg (talk) 23:17, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

French page for white tailed spider

Information about white tailed spider:

Leur habitat préféré est sous l'écorce et les plantes sèches mais sera souvent vu dans les maisons, où ils cherchent l'abri de la lumière, après chasser la nuit. L'araignée cache souvent dans le vêtement, surtout s'il est parti rester environ par terre, aussi, ils d'ordinaire la hutte au temps du soir pour là la proie (les autres types d'araignées). Ils se tapissent d'ordinaire dans les fissures étaient pourrait vous voir les toiles d'araignée. Que fait un Lampona Cylindrata (aussi connu comme white tailed spider) natal est cela, prendre le c'est la proie, il n'utilise pas une toile d'araignée (et les autres araignées ne tombent pas pour le là propre type de toile). Ils sont moyens a calibré, natal à à Australie du sud et de l'est peut être aussi trouvé dans Nouvelle Zélande. Ils sont nommés le blanc a suivi l'araignée à cause des pointes blanchâtres à la fin de leurs abdomens. Qu'un Lampona Cylindrata fait pour capturer le c'est la proie est, il l'attaque avec le c'est du venin qui est utilisé pour chasser. S'ils sont dérangés par un humain, contrôlé, ou a provoqué. Ils piqueraient l'humain avec le c'est du venin toxique, si oui, ils écorchent ne guérirait jamais. Cylindrata femelle commence jusqu'à 18 millimètres longs, mais mâles sont 12 millimètres dans la longueur de corps. Il y a 2 espèce commune d'un blanc a suivi l'araignée, Lampona Cylindrata, et l'autre qui est Lampona Murina. Les deux espèces n'est pas facilement distinguée de l'un l'autre sans un examen microscopique. Ils sont araignées sveltes que les ayant l'obscurité rougeâtre au corps gris et en forme de cigare et les jambes de banded brunes, orange et sombres. L'abdomen gris a les paires de remorque d'endroits blancs faibles et un endroit blanc distinct à la pointe juste au-dessus du spinnerets. Ils habitent en les jardins et dans les maisons, en dessous de l'écorce et les rochers, dans les détritus de feuille et sont souvent trouvé dans les plis de tissus, les serviettes et les chaussures. Si vous regardez soigneusement, ils ont spécialisé des cheveux sur la fin de leurs jambes qui les peuvent faire marchent sur le verre. La proie là préférée pour chasser est Araignée de Maison Noire.

[1] —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manosasam (talk • contribs) 15:38, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Whitey and daddy long legs

It is commonly heard in New Zealand that a favourite food of the white tail is the daddy long legs . Strangely enough, it may be the other way round. See this encounter. Moriori (talk) 22:50, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it's possible that sometime a daddy long legs eat a white tailed spider and sometimes a white tailed spider eats a daddy long legs. I've seen a Steatoda bipunctata eating a daddy long legs and heard that Zoropsis spiders sometimes catch daddy long legs but that does not mean that e.g. Zoropsis or a white tailed spider always win against a daddy long legs. Daddy long legs are very talented hunters and in their webs they are almost unassailable. Without being in their web many spiders have a chance against daddy long legs so probably even a white tailed spider. --Buachamer (talk) 15:58, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

In your video above the white tailed spider got into the web of a daddy longlegs. It's very difficult to escape there but it escaped. At 5:33 the whit tailed spider almost turned around the fight. At the end both escaped from another. --Buachamer (talk) 11:05, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

New type of white tailed spider

I've seen a few of what looks like a juvenile white tailed spider with orange on I think it's thorax or sometimes abdomen or a white stripe, in just over a year. They don't seem to grow any bigger. Simon Le Messurier (talk) 02:23, 17 January 2019 (UTC)