Talk:White horse

Attribution

Material here was moved from the Gray (horse) article. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 22:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

req Photo (2006)

If anyone has a photo of a truly white horse--i.e. not a gray with a white hair coat--feel free to post here. One is needed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Montanabw (talk • contribs) 22:22, 17 July 2006 (UTC)

Genetics of White Horses

Corrected the genetic expectations of white x colored in two spots, from 25% to 50%.

Statistically, a white horse (Ww) bred to a horse of another color will simply produce white offspring about 50% of the time,

* Color Stallion X White Mare (or vice versa): 50% of foals will be white, 50% will be colored

As shown by the Punnett square in the section, white (Ww) x colored (ww) gives you 50% (two squares) Ww (white) and 50% (two squares) ww (colored).

66.107.12.18 13:45, 31 August 2006 (UTC)

Since this is a question on genetics, I figured it probably belonged here. I apologise if that's not the case. ^_^ But I'm somewhat baffled - I've been researching colour genetics in horses for several years now, and the question of a W gene has come up multiple times, but never have I seen actual proof of such a gene existing - except the "proof" of one really old photo of a supposedly Dominant White horse, but which has nothing backing up this claim except that it is a pale horse with dark eyes and pink skin. I know this can occur due to the actions of other genes though, and I'm just curious since I noticed "However, there is also strong evidence that the "W" gene exists independent of any gene for spotting patterns, as confirmed by the mapping of the "W" WNT1 gene in 2004" in this article, but when I clicked the reference links I have only come up with speculation and "might be"s, and a search for information on the WNT1 gene itself led me to sites on cancer research, and a proposal to attempt to map the horse genome. This latter article I went through and it seems to be suggesting that the WNT1 is a genetic marker which may be linked to "white" horses, but I could not find a definite reference to the gene being proven or not. Though admittedly, technical reports are not my forte, so if someone who knows better points out my errors I'll be grateful and probably less confused. ^_^ That "mapping of the W gene" phrase in this article caught my eye and made me wonder if there'd been some sort of discovery that I somehow missed. If there's proof of a W gene I am extremely interested in locating it, as this whole white-horse issue is a question which has plagued me since before I even heard the word "genetics", and when I'm attempting to help others learn about colour genes I'd prefer not to have my facts all messed up. :") Thanks! 58.163.152.146 21:29, 11 September 2007 (UTC)Penniroyel

Basically, not all color genes have been specifically mapped--quite a few, actually (I don't think they've mapped the Gray gene, either, for example). And it is pretty fascinating. Both White and Sabino are real curiousities and they haven't figured out the whole puzzle, so if you do spot more studies beyond those listed in this article and in Equine coat color genetics, feel free to note them. But in short, from what seems to be out there, we unquestionably have more than a few horses with pink skin and blue eyes, and they alsotrue white (Ww) don't appear to occur unless at least one parent is white. The theory is that W is a dominant (in that one parent must have the gene for it to pass), Sabino is even weirder and may be a gene-complex, not a single gene. Of th sabino genes, they have mapped SB1, which in some cases causes a "maximum sabino" which is also an all-white horse with pink skin, and I can't recall if SB1 produces blue eyes and dark eyes both or not...SB1 is not a dominant, I don't think, but check the UC Davis site to verify what's the current status. Montanabw^(talk) 19:07, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the reply, and I completely agree, genes are fascinating, and the sabino pattern is one of my favourites. Maximum sabino is usually my first thought when I see horses that are being claimed as dominant white, since extreme sabino is closer to true white than a creme or champagne/creme dilution due to the lack of pigment rather than the pigment simply being diluted. Also, sabino sometimes makes the eyes blue and sometimes doesn't, depending on the location of the depigmented areas, and thus could explain the dark eyes. And yes, the UC Davis site did mention the pattern as being a gene-complex rather than a single gene, as not all horses with sabino patterning tested positive for SB1. They also mentioned that SB1 was a dominant gene, but that a homozygous SB1 horse is at least 90% white (much like the "cat tracks" that can often be found on a homozygous tobiano, perhaps?), and I have seen at least a few cases of extreme sabinos being close enough to completely white that the only pigment left is a few tiny spots of dark skin that are only visible when the horse is wet, and in some cases dark eyes (depending on the spotting location and extent). Splash White seems to be more commonly associated with blue eyes than sabino, as far as I can recall, though both do often cause blue eyes - but it may have been just that Splash can have a tendency to make the blue eyes paler than other spotting genes, as some Splash horses have eyes which look almost silver rather than blue. And as I have not heard of a W horse having silver-ish eyes, and the fact that dark eyes seem to be preferred, it sounds as if Splash is not the gene responsible. However, the UC Davis site still hasn't really answered any of my questions about the W gene because it states that the eyes of a Dominant White are sometimes dark, sometimes blue (a trait also attributable to spotting patterns) and that these horses are sometimes referred to as albino, which is technically a misnomer as true albino shows a lack of pigmentation in the eyes as well, resulting in red or pink eyes from the blood vessels showing in the unpigmented iris. It also suggested that homozygous W is lethal, which made me curious as it suggested a possible link to the Overo Lethal White Syndrome and thus made me wonder if it was maybe connected, perhaps some kind of overo which causes one huge white spot over the whole horse - this could also explain the different eye colours, and the fact that I have seen some supposedly W horses being listed as having tiny spots of coloured skin. This site (http://omia.angis.org.au/retrieve.shtml?pid=2710) also seemed to have some information on the gene, and although some of the more technical aspects had me a little confused, it seemed to me as if there was a possibility it could be referring to Dominant White as being an all-over white spot, though I could be wrong on this as I am uncertain as to the exact way the true albino gene blocks colour in other animals - the reference to the specific way the gene blocks out the pigment in a set pattern (from the "top" of the horse to the belly) made me wonder, due to the way the documented spotting patterns have specific ways of forming the white patches which can help to identify the genes causing the spots (eg frame not crossing the topline, often having a white face but coloured legs, etc, as compared to tobiano crossing the topline and usually having socks or stockings but normal facial colouring, and more rounded spots than an overo, and the lacy edges of sabino spots or the crisp, blocky edges of the Splash spots - that sort of thing). Though of course, this is speculation as I am not a professional geneticist and have not been able to verify this with someone who is. Gah, I'm rambling. Sorry. Just been trying to figure this gene out for way too long and still have no real clue about whether or not it even exists - though from what I can see I'm leaning toward it possibly being a form of overo if it does exist. Thanks again, hopefully some day someone will figure out what this elusive colour is all about. :) 58.163.153.183 14:22, 4 October 2007 (UTC) Penniroyel

If you haven't checked all the references and links in the article, please feel free to do so, also there is a long-ranging and quite heated discussion of this at [{Equine coat color genetics]] too. (I spent way too much time arguing with a college kid) There is a lethal white syndrome article too. Bottom line, in layman's terms, appears to be as follows:

• No one has totally figured out overo coloration, except for the Lethal White gene, which is somehow linked to overo, but many overo horses do not have the lethal recessive, so the color pattern alone is not the trigger for it. Overo also apears to have some recessive characteristics, as exhibited by the "cropout" Quarter horses who are solid for generations, then pop out an overo foal.
• Tobiano is a dominant. And apparently dominant over overo. You cannot have a Tobiano unless one parent is also Tobiano (though some horses can be pretty minimally Tobiano, another probable source of "cropout" Quarter Horses). However, Tobianos (and solids) have thrown lethal white foals, but so far in every case of this, the tobianos (and the solids) have overo ancestors. So whatever is going on with lethal white, there is an overo connection, but they haven't figured it out completely.
• Sabino is NOT overo, though the Paint horse folks group the two together (they did so before modern genetic studies). Sabino in general does not appear to be a true dominant, or else we'd see more of it, as we do with Tobiano, which is. Sabino has no connection to lethal white. Sabino appears to come from more than one gene. And yes, some Sabinos with SB1 are pure white or nearly so-- the "maximum" Sabinos. There do not appear to be "maximum" Tobianos at all, nor any living "maximum" Overos. (The so-called "living lethals" are all probably maximum sabinos) SB1 to date has been found in breeds like the Tennessee Walker and the Mustang, but not in other sabinos like the Arabian and the Clydesdale -- so SB 1 cannot be the only Sabino gene. There are a very few true white Arabians, apparently fewer than 11 in the world. I don't think anyone has DNA tested them for SB1, and all the ones I know of (two or three) have dark eyes.
• Dominant white, the "W" gene that some people think doesn't exist, appears to be a different kettle of fish. However, the Mau study in 2004 suggests that the gene is real, and earlier studies confirmed that it exists. All "White" (as opposed to Sabino) horses have at least one white parent, thus the W gene, whatever else it is, behaves like a dominant. WW foals are never even born, they die or are reabsorbed in the womb. Lethal white foals (OO) are born alive, but have no colon and will die within a week.

So anyway, the weight of current research suggests that there are Sabino, overo, tobiano and white genes. Hope this helps. Montanabw^(talk) 17:30, 4 October 2007 (UTC)

Very Rare

Totally agree that they are extremely rare. My grandfather always told me, there are very few white horses. Culnacreann 17:58, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

I think the popularity in the USA for various unusual colors makes them a bit more common in the USA than Europe, but they are still pretty rare here. Be interesting to see how the "is there really a W gene" issue shakes out--one school of thought says all "white" horses are actually maximally-expressed sabinos. I can't say I agree, but fascinating concept--pintos of various sorts more popular in the USA than in Europe, I think. Important either way for white horse coloring to be in a separate article from the Gray horse one, especially given the way people get all mystical about white coloring in any animal... :-) Montanabw 19:02, 2 October 2006 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Lone Ranger and Silver (3).jpg

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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:45, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Added rationale to article and image page. Hope this does the trick. Montanabw^(talk) 20:25, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

popular culture

Moved here from the White Horse (disambiguation) talkpage. Is it worth creating a "WH in culture" section?

• A white horse is depicted as the loyal mount of Prince Charming in fairy tale literature
• In Christian tradition, a white horse is ridden by one of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
• The white wind-blown caps of sea waves are often described as white horses, for example in the Beaufort scale windforce 5 is described as "Moderate waves, many white horses".
• The heraldic signs of both Kent and the House of Hanover contain a white horse
• Referenced in Blind Lemon Jefferson's song See That My Grave Is Kept Clean recorded in 1928. The precursor to references by both Bob Dylan in his version of the song of the same name and also Beck's. "I got two white horses following me, Waiting on my burying ground."
• Referenced in Beck's song Farewell Ride. "Two white horses in a line, carrying me to my burying ground."
• Referenced in Jeff Buckley's song Mojo Pin. "I'm blind and tortured, the white horses flow."
• Tori Amos makes references to White Horses in two songs. The first one is on "Winter": ""All the white horses are still in bed/All the white horses have gone ahead" and the second one, in the song Horses. "The record (Boys For Pele) begins with the white horses from Winter coming back to take me on this journey and we ride and go find the demons..." -- Tori; Making Music, Jan 1996

BrainyBabe (talk) 19:17, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

OH GOD NOOOOOOOO! See WP:DISAMBIGUATION. Sorry to overreach These damn "popular culture" things can grow to eat the whole article. This is precisely what disambiguation pages are for! And wikipedia discourages 'lists' in articles when possible. People can link to this article in their respective articles if they want to, but not the other way around. Montanabw^(talk) 23:16, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

None of these are named white horses. I will reinstate the use of the term for certain waves on the dab. The passing references in songs etc. are trivial, but someone or ones thought them worth the time to add, which is why I haven't deleted, but moved here. It would be good to have an article about Knight on a white horse, the proverbial rescuer. The heraldry example already exists at dab more precisely. BrainyBabe (talk) 06:13, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

No, it isn't the naming problem. It's the "popular culture/trivia" problem. Wikipedia in general frowns on lists and excessive trivia sections in articles, and while occasionally a trivia section is interesting if it can be limited to just a few quirky tidbits that are humorous or interesting, for "white horse" such a list can grow beyond belief until we have every song, movie, TV show, anime cartoon and god knows what -- at most, there is an argument to be made for a "white horse in myth" section that summarizes some of the major beliefs from antiquity, but that would be, IMHO, all we'd want. A trivia section would eat this article, I fear. Best to not even start one! Montanabw^(talk) 03:36, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Recommendations

There are many ways to skin a cat. All roads lead to Rome. "White" is a weird word. In summary, the "W" gene is not exclusively related to color, nor is it an on-off switch for true pink-skinned (unpigmented) white horses. The "W" gene goes by the names KIT, Mast Cell Growth Factor Receptor (MGFR), and Stem Cell Factor Receptor (SCFR). There are many known mutations on equine KIT:

• Single nucleotide polymorphism in exon 4; heterozygotes are nearly all-white.
• SNP in exon 12; heterozygotes are nearly all-white.
• SNP in exon 13; heterozygotes are nearly all-white.
• SNP in exon 15; heterozygotes are nearly all-white.
• SNP in intron 16; homozygotes are nearly all-white.
• Chromosomal inversion downstream from the gene itself causes KIT to be flipped; expression varies from mostly solid to mostly white but most are about 50/50.

W/KIT has more than 90 known allelic variations in mice; more will doubtless be found in horses.

What I am trying to communicate is that the use of "W" and "w" is not true to the nature of dominant white in any animal, including horses. Instead, I propose that this article focus on the phenotypes of dominant white. If the focus is on the phenotype (pigment-less skin and white hair), then the genetic causes (which are numerous) will describe themselves: KIT is frequently involved because it is in necessary to normal migration of melanocytes in development.

Also, what I didn't include in this post was to identify "Sabino-1" and "Tobiano" in the list of known allelic variations of KIT. Countercanter (talk) 16:06, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Interesting. We (i/you/we, whatever) just have to keep it in understandable English and figure out how to avoid WP:NOR (which can be frustrating when one has a synthesis in their own head but can't find the publications to support it, even though the conclusion is obvious!). I guess we are sort of on the same track, in that we should have a section for the non-scientists on why white horses are white (as popularly understood - pink skin, not grays) and then a separate section on the genetic that cause these things?

So what about "dominant lethal white" - the thing that there are no true albinos and that WW is fatal (and NOT the same as LWS?)

Third, places like UCD make a big deal out of sabino-white (or "maximum Sabino", i.e. the SB-1 horses) being something that is NOT "dominant white" (because Sabinos do not produce lethal white foals unless they carry frame or W in addition to SB-1??) So of the genes you list up there, which are which?

Fourth, I have never confirmed Tobiano producing an all-white horse OR a cropout, though I have heard informal claims to both. And tobiano is dominant -- so whazzup wit' dat?

All in all, what we have here is a science in such flux. Wanna bet by this time next year we have to rewrite the whole thing again? Montanabw^(talk) 01:20, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Misinterpretation of Mau & Bailey's works

The sentence in this article which argues for a distinction between "sabino-white" and "dominant white" is pretty misleading. I checked out the Bailey article, which led me to Mau's article Genetic mapping of dominant white (W), a homozygous lethal condition in the horse (Equus caballus). This study precedes Allelic heterogeneity and maps the pattern found in Franches Montagnes horses (descended from a white mare (presumably solid though there's no way to know if she was utterly devoid of pigment) named Cigale, who was born of 2 non-white parents). Of course the photos of the Franches Montagnes horses are available from Allelic heterogeneity and feature horses largely white that "roan out" further with age (despite not being gray). Please also note this quote from Mau's abstract: "It seems, that the action of the dominant white allele is not always fully penetrant, resulting occasionally in spotted look alike offspring. These horses resemble a coat colour pattern known as sabino spotting. So far, it is not known whether dominant white (W) and sabino spotting (S) share a common genetic background." This study mapped the W gene to chromosome 3; Allelic heterogeneity furthered this research and isolated what has been referred to as W to the KIT gene, and then described different polymorphisms along KIT for Franches-Montagnes white, and other white families.

MontanaBW and I have discussed this at length in the past, but until I put these pieces together I couldn't make the claim I do now: The W allele which has been discussed in several coat color genetics texts and the UC Davis site refers to a dominantly-inherited condition among descendants of a Franches-Montagnes mare named Cigale (b. 1950's). Horses with Cigale's "white" gene are not necessarily fully white, and many get whiter with age. Other white horses popped up in a manner similar to Cigale: from two non-white parents. This has occurred in horses known for and even selected for modest markings: Arabians and Thoroughbreds. These two breeds also represent the most stringent of pedigree requirements and parentage proof. The search for a single gene responsible for Cigale's white and the white of various Arabian and TB families instead turned up a NUMBER of polymorphisms on the KIT gene in chromosome 3, where several white patterns have been identified (tobiano, roan, Sabino1).

In the future, I or someone else will have to modify this article. This article must either refer to Cigale's form of dominant white, which is presumed to be HZ lethal and does not always result in a fully-white coat, or it must refer to all forms of dominantly-inherited white. My point is, there is NO gene which is dominant, HZ lethal, and always produces a fully-white coat. Countercanter (talk) 21:42, 17 November 2008 (UTC)

And for anyone else who is interested, I'm OK with Countercanter's assessment, and favor an article covering all forms of "white" that are not gray. Just be clear that at present Sabino and "dominant white" (whatever it actually is) aren't considered the same thing. If you read some of the non-scientific links in the existing article, there are sites that claim all white horses are sabino -- probably with the political agenda of denying that there is no such thing as lethal white. There was actually an edit war over this a year or two ago. That one white Arabian and his offspring are advertised as "Sabino," by the way... no clue what the truth is. (Hiding a lethal form or the first Arab with SB-1??) But anyway, my axe to grind in all of this is to be sure that the article neither "whitewashs" the legitimate problem of lethality connected to at least some kinds of white coloration, but also not to unnecessarily tar non-lethal forms of white coloring if there is no link (as appears to be the case with sabino genetics). Beyond that, if it's sourced and reflects the best current scientific research, I'm all for it! Montanabw^(talk) 23:44, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

Ways to get "white"

There are many ways to get a white horse. I'm outlining them here.

Horses that may be called "white" but which have some pigment in the skin and hair.

• Grays. It seems that the gray mutation makes melanocytes undergo premature aging. They are highly active, resulting in foals with saturated coats, and then as they die off the hair becomes white. Only horses with gray-related vitiligo (mostly Arabians, Lipizzaners, Andalusians, Percherons) undergo any change in the pigmentation of the skin. Which is not to say all grays have dark skin and eyes: a champagne that goes gray will have champagne skin and eyes!

• Agreed, but as horse people by convention differentiate gray from white, I'd put that in the gray article, with only a brief link in this one. Also, unlike other forms, graying only affects hair as a rule, the vitiligo thing doesn't happen to all grays, that's yet another issue. All grays DO have dark skin unless yet another gene for another color is involved. Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Blue-eyed creams. I got to see a lot of these at the Equine Affaire last weekend, by the way. The skin is rosy but the truly unpigmented pink skin where markings exist is distinguishable. The hair is cream colored and quite distinguishable from true white hair. This gene does affect pigmentation in the eye, however.

• But they are NOT "white" horses. They are cream. Good observation of the rosy-versus-unpignmented thing. I have to admit that I haven't seen a live cremello since this issue was raised, so I'll take your assessment on that one.

• Sticking my nose into this and reminding that a blue eye is partly pigmented; an unpigmented eye would be faintly greyish or red. Pitke (talk) 10:01, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

Not precisely. There are no "albino" (i.e. red-eyed) horses in the world, thus the "pure" blue eye is what you get when there is little or no pigmentation in the horse. Countercanter can explain this better, but that was her edit, we have already argued over it and in terms of genetics, she's convinced me on this one. Montanabw^(talk) 01:26, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

What Montana wants to do is remind you that there are no albino horses, so for the purposes of this article, when a horse has an "unpigmented" eye, it is blue. However, you are right: there are 2 parts of the eye that have pigment, and these parts descend from different stem cell lines. If the front layer alone is unpigmented, the eye appears blue. If both are unpigmented - which hasn't happened in horses - then the eyes are not blue. Horses are white through various forms of piebaldism, not amelanism. All of which I think you know :) Countercanter (talk) 02:34, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

Yes, like CC just said! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 03:43, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

If there were albino horses, their completely unpigmented eyes would be etc. is what I meant. Pitke (talk) 22:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

Right you are! Countercanter (talk) 23:09, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

• Mixed dilutes with different combinations of cream, champagne, pearl, dun and silver genes. Improbable combinations such as champagne diluted by both (single) cream and pearl factors are something we can only speculate, but it might well be light enough to call it white. "Ivory champagnes" (champagne with cream) are known to exist, and seem to be slightly whiter than ordinary double creams, and have the mottled skin of champagnes. Pitke (talk) 22:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

White horses: bright pink skin, true white hair.

• Homozygous Sabino1. So far found almost exclusively in American gaited horses, some Paints and Mustangs; not responsible for sabino Clydesdales/Shires, Arabians, or TBs. Homozygous Sb1 sabinos can be identified with a genetic test. They are usually about 90% white with pigmented regions along the topline. This gene does not affect the pigmentation of the eyes. (UC Davis)

• Agreed. And NOT lethal when homozygous. Saw something, somewhere that the 90%+ white horses are homozygous, heterozygotes less so? Question: Are there some blue eyes with homozygotes or are all dark-eyed? Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Heterozygous Tyr717Xaa/c.2151C>G mutation (amino acid/nucleotide) on KIT. Descendants of a Franches-Montagnes (aka Freiberger) mare, Cigale, born 1957. Affected horses are born more or less all-white, with pigmented areas along the topline losing their pigment with age. (Allelic heterogeneity)

• Is this linked to lethal genes when homozygous? Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Heterozygous Lys236Xaa/c.706A>T mutation on KIT. One form of white found in Arabians. Relatives with some minor white spotting did not have this, or any other KIT, mutation. Affected horses are more or less all-white. The name of the common ancestor is not given in the study, described only as: "In the Arabian family, the presumed founder stallion was born in 1996." (Allelic heterogeneity)

• It's precisely ONE Arabian and his offspring, born only 12 years ago. And he is dark-eyed, I think. His owners claim he is "Sabino." And it is super easy to identify the horse, I think I did so around here somewhere ... the photo in the study is reproduced on the stallion owner's web site, the horse identified as his offspring. (Personally, I still think it's a freak mutation or an impure bloodline and the registry should have refused registration of the animal. I'm afraid he could throw lethals. But that's just my opinion, the horse is registered whether I like it or not, sigh...) Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Heterozygous Ala602Val/c.1805C>T mutation on KIT. Descendants of Sultan, born in 1912, foundation sire of the Camarillo White horse breed. (Allelic heterogeneity)

• The Camarillo folks appear to admit that they do have lethality with dominant homozygotes. Is this verified elsewhere? Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Heterozygous Gly654Arg/c.1960G>A mutation on KIT. One form of white found in Thoroughbreds. Five other white Thoroughbreds from other families did not possess this, or any other KIT, mutation. "The white founder animal of the Thoroughbred family segregating the c.1960G>A mutation is most likely a stallion born in 1946." (Allelic heterogeneity)

• Agreed. Any evidence of homozygous lethality? Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• Other dominant white mutations. (Allelic heterogeneity) In addition to Sb1 and those outlined above, various mutations are responsible for other forms of sabino-type patterning in Arabians, TBs, and Shires/Clydesdales.

• I question if "dominant" is proven. These are all called "Sabino," though not Sb1. None produce fully white horses, as far as I know. Sometimes the patterning is quite hidden and almost acts like a cropout.

• Multiple patterns: most commonly frame+tobiano, but also any combination of "sabinos", frame, tobiano, splash, etc.Countercanter (talk) 19:05, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

• All should be cross-linked from here to the Pinto article. "Sabino" is most definitely NOT tobiano, frame or splash. APHA places sabino in the "Overo" family, but other breeds that carry non-SB-1 Sabino (Clydes, Arabs) do not recognize Tobiano or Fame/Splash Overo. Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

My comments and replies above. My thinking is that this article needs to stick to visually white horses, and the way white genetics may also influence pattern and markings stuff can be mentioned briefly but with links to the proper color articles. Thoughts? Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• The recipe for getting the horse with the smallest amount of pigmentation ever: produce an all-spot pattern by combining at least a maximum expression splashed white and maximum expression tobiano. Combining maximum splashed white with homozygous SB1 sabino or a dominant white should also do the trick, and in case of trickled part-pigmented areas on the neck or body, a dose of tobiano and/or frame might just clear it out. Splashed white would cover the head, legs and ventral line, and the other patterns should clear the sides and the top line from poll to tailtip. Ears would probably have at least some base colour, but that could be reduced to minimum pigment with double cream dilution over a light chestnut base (if running a low budget) and hammered down to even less with champagne and/or pearl dilutions probably (if getting really imaginary to ensure the least-pigmented possible result). Add (homozygous?) aggressive greying leading to partial pinking of (the already so very pink) skin, and there :) All that is left are the eyes that will still be a faint blue, but that "could" be fixed by a convenient mutation leading to complete loss of pigment in the eyes, quite similarly to humans who have multicoloured or odd-coloured eyes due to mutation. I wonder if the "cropout" wall eyes are unique mutations like this or if they're an extremely small-expressed (recessive) "spotting" pattern... In the case the mutation doesn't want to happen (and we're not getting into gene technology), we should get a horse with completely white hair and completely unpigmented skin with the exception of some faint traces of skin pigmentation in the ears, and with faintly blue eyes. Pitke (talk) 22:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

You are well into WP:NOR territory now, Pitke! LOL! And I think it must have been tried, heavens knows people want there to be white horses. I say just keep breeding maximum sabino SB-1s!!! Much easier! Montanabw^(talk) 03:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

• Whiteborn leopard complex horses. Homozygous Lp horses with extensive white patterning may have little skin and coat pigment to speak of, and are called "Whiteborn" in most languages.

• Source? That one is news to me. Don't hear appy people out here use that terminology. And Lp acts differently from other patterning genes -- the white scelera and such...I'd be very careful dragging in every white pattern into this article...Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 22 November 2008 (UTC)

• I only know of the German term weißgeboren, literally "white-born". Judging from a round of Wikipedia surfing, most languages actually just use the English terms for leopard complex patterns, and thus also "few-spot", as they apparently have little need to establish their own words. A semi-established Finnish translation (with no official support whatsoever) is "white tiger-spotted". Pitke (talk) 22:38, 2 December 2009 (UTC)

"tiger SPOTTED?" That's even worse than the German. OK, I give up now. **headdesk** Montanabw^(talk) 03:26, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok let me explain in detail for a change ;) Etymology for "tiikerinkirjava".

• Spotted is the word I used to translate "kirjava" which generally means anything with multiple colours and in Equinese, anything "coloured", i.e. something that had more going on than just base colours, greying or roan patterns. For who knows how long the only "coloured" patterns we ever had were the kind would be also called "spotted" in English, most notably and probably sabino patterns. Speculations about, say, splashed white, exist, but (eternal damnation for this kind of punctuation) that cannot ever be proven true as any traces of true splashed white type patterns, if they ever existed int he first place, have long disappeared. So basically we were stuck with our homey poneys for a thousand or so years. and then came the foreigners. I could also note (and I am doing it) that we have terms that explicitly describe the type of spotting: what the English language calls spotting (i.e. typically large white blotches) can be called "läikikkyys" while the word "täplikäs" can only mean small roundish — spots. Against this background, it's hard to adapt to calling the pinto patterns spotting and the leopard complex patterns (even the ones that have (leopard) spots) "whatever, it's not spotting though" :X
• Tiger ("tiikeri") is a word that meant "any kind of foreign monstrous cat-being" for a long time, and I'm not talking about just Finns here. The whole Europe was like this. Not only striped patterns but also spotted leopard-like ones were called "tiger pattern". This brings me to the last issue.
• Tiger-spotted ("tiikerinkirjava") for the reasons above, probably in the form of "tiger-patterned" or "tigered", was the name that came to mean a fancy, fashionable horse with funny round little spots all over. Like one of these. To this day the words meaning the leopard complex patterns in many languages are based on the word tiger: Swesish has "tigrerad", German has "der Tigerschecke" (word for word the same that we Finns use: "with spots of a tiger", so don't you go calling Finnish terms "even worse than the German" before you know Finnish :P), Magyar "Чубара масть" (apparently "tigara mast" or something). For other great cats, Danish has "leopardprikkede" and Dutch has "panterbont". For something entireyl else, French calls it " tachetée" i.e. "speckled", Russian "Чубарая" ("spotted" (not in the English sense)) and Latvian "lāsumains", "mottled". The Finnish loaned the term from the Swedish, who loaned it from Germany mayhaps, and what happened before is their business altogether.
• Actually English language has no good, handy way to call the patterns of the leopard complex (other than "appaloosa"). Pitke (talk) 12:18, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Tobiano is way more common than Sabino, and much more obviously "spotted." But point taken. Keep in mind that English has its own horse nomenclature and it goes back as far as the language itself, so proceed carefully when translating words that arose in different cultures (doesn't German have something like "white-gray" for grays??) And "Appaloosa" comes from a geographic region, the Palouse valley. So it has nothing to do with spots, Appies were "those horses from the Palouse area." LOL! I think your "tiger spots" just need to be redirects for those Europeans speaking English as a second language who might be hunting here. That whole concept, while fascinating, is making my head explode... and isn't Finnish distantly related to Hungarian and Magyar languages? No wonder you look forward to learning a tonal language like Mandarin! LOL! Oh man, no wonder we Yanks are so horrible at other languages, we scare so easily! ROFL! Montanabw^(talk) 00:38, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Um, I meant "For who knows how long the only "coloured" patterns we ever had were the kind would be also called "spotted" in English, most notably and probably sabino patterns." as in "For who knows how long the only "coloured" patterns we ever had were most notably and probably sabino patterns. The ones English calls 'spotted'". And rest assured, I know the difference between an Appaloosa and the colouration discussed. I also happen to see the word "appaloosa" used as a synonym for "leopard complex patterned". I wouldn't be adding redirects until there is need for them. The above ramble was simply to illustrate the multitude of terminology about the patterns discussed. Pitke (talk) 09:54, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for the education, Pitke. I'm glad that my edits to the Noriker article regarding the term were accurate. Languages are very interesting and as we continue discovering ways to discern different spotting/piebaldism patterns from each other, terminology has had to evolve to keep up. Countercanter (talk) 14:19, 4 December 2009 (UTC)

Genetics updates

[1] This article provides an accessible synopsis of the results and impact of Bianca Haase, Samantha A. Brooks, Teruaki Tozaki, Dominik Burger, Pierre-André Poncet, Stefan Rieder, Telhisa Hasegawa, Cecilia Penedo, Tosso Leeb. Seven novel KIT mutations in horses with white coat colour phenotypes. Wiley InterScience Animal Genetics, May 2009. [2]

The pdf did make my browser unhappy once or twice so take care opening it. This is all very substantial and I just wanted to make it available before I start...slicing. Countercanter (talk) 21:35, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

It downloaded OK for me. Looks good. Cite carefully, but I agree it's a very, very nice synopsis. Montanabw^(talk) 22:06, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Nice photo

There is a nice photo at: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Yukichan_20080427P2.jpg Cgoodwin (talk) 23:00, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

The future

What is the future for this article? It might be a useful gateway, and could be re-written to be less about dominant white, which now has its own article, and more about white horses in culture, and other types of white and "white" horses. It might also include some information on white markings and patterns. Just thoughts. Countercanter (talk) 13:11, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

The "gateway" concept is a good one, short sections on all the whites and white mimics would work well (and may allow us to merge or shorten the discussion of cremello, etc., in the dominant white article if it's put here with a "main" link). I want to be real cautious about markings for now, lest we confuse every basic horse book on the planet and half the breed registries! LOL! Remember, even if you are right, going too far in synthesis of research can run us afoul of WP:NOR. If you want to tweak, tweak. Or I can, as time permits  :-P Montanabw^(talk) 03:36, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

Spots

When describing the sabino gene this article talks about spotting ; I have to point out that to a British (and I think European ) reader the word spot is utterly and entirely different to the American interpretation and the use of the word spot in this instance will create a great deal of confusion in European readers. I presume this may also occur in articles about skewbald and piebald horses if those articles were written by an American. To a European the word spot means something small and round - essentially the size and shape of a coin - whereas the markings described in this article as spots are to the European known as patches and would never ever be described as spots. Whilst I myself know what is meant because I know what a sabino looks like, I think many readers will be mislead by the use of the word spot; I think this use of the word needs to be reviewed where it causes confusion. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Pandderian (talk • contribs) 14:34, 23 May 2011 (UTC)

Sabinos are not necessarily pintos, often they are simply horses with very bold white, often flecked on the edges. I'm not sure I agree with you, but am open to further discussion. Maybe look at Sabino horse and pinto horse to see if we can clarify matters. This article probably could also use to be updated with info from dominant white, but that's another job... Montanabw^(talk) 00:20, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Monty dear, about the terminology thing? Pandderian is pointing out "spot" means small round spots (think Appie rears) in BrE and that the fact might be very confusing for a Br reader who sees the word used for any spotting/pied pattern between Lp and Frame. Pitke (talk) 15:28, 25 May 2011 (UTC)

Pitke, dahling, that makes some sense, if we need to distinguish between "patches" and "spots" I'm willing to work on clarifying terms...feel free to make some tweaks if you want. But here, we'd never say "pied," at least, not in the last century or so... Montanabw^(talk) 21:07, 26 May 2011 (UTC)

American Albino

In the 70s I often saw articles in the Western Horseman (October, I believe, always a breed issue) on a breed called the American Albino. They were all supposed to be horses with the dominant White gene, but the article said they had dark skin and eyes. Perhaps it was a misprint and it was only the eyes that were sometimes dark. (Or perhaps I remembered wrong- it's been so long ago.) I have a white horse with dark skin. He's not a gray, although he may have the gray gene. He was buckskin as a 3-year old- at least 6 different people have attested to this. (He's a pony on the racetrack, so hundreds of people have seen him). I've been told that his owner clipped him for the winter and he was white underneath- and never regained his coloring. He's half-Percheron, half QH. With the Percheron blood, I suspect he does have the gray gene, and must have the dilution gene from his QH side. His mane and tail have a very slight yellowish tint- but there are no dark hairs on his body at all- as are usual on most gray horses. 

[[

File:14177 1015257707...

Another shot of Angel

]] This is my first try at adding photos- we'll see if I'm successful. Any thoughts on his genetics? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Equusma (talk • contribs) 18:25, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

I think my first photo didn't go through. `Equusma

File:10314559 1015256...

Angel, my white horse

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Equusma (talk • contribs) 18:28, 29 September 2014 (UTC)

Requested move 26 September 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: White (horse) is not moved, and White Horse moves to White horse  — Amakuru (talk) 15:30, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

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• White (horse) → White horse
• White Horse → White horse (disambiguation)

– Currently, "White horse" redirects here, while "White Horse" is a disambiguation. This article also uses the phrase "white horse" in the introduction, and calling the article here "white horse" makes it more readable and understandable to readers than the parentheses option. Then, having the capitalised version redirect here and putting the other items on a disambig is the least confusing option. The Evil IP address (talk) 09:54, 26 September 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose "white horse" should redirect to White Horse or the disambiguation page should move to white horse. Either way, this article does not move there. This article should be renamed white horse (equines) or similar. -- 65.94.171.217 (talk) 05:30, 27 September 2016 (UTC)

• Oppose — do not rename at all, this title has been stable (pardon the pun) for a decade. All the equine coat color articles are named with parenthetical disambiguation if disambiguation is needed. (necessary for a number of colors that also have place names or other dab needs,(e.g. bay horse, dun, ) ""White horse" probably needs to be the dab page. There are also names like Whitehorse and related words that make the uncapitalized dab most appropriate and the fully capitalized one moved to redirect accordingly. Montanabw^(talk) 06:23, 28 September 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose. I don't see any reason to move this. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 21:36, 28 September 2016 (UTC)

• Support. The current title is confusing as it seems to use the word "white" as an adjective, even though you'd expect a Wikipedia article title to be a noun or noun phrase. A sentence such as "That fine-looking stallion must be a white!" (in which "white" is used as a noun to refer to a type of horse) clearly sounds bizarre! Yet if you'd argue that the word "white" is being used here as an adjective, then it would still be odd: how often are Wikipedia titles adjectives?? The better term in my prior bizarre example sentence and the better name for this article would clearly be the noun phrase "white horse". Furthermore, this would be more consistent with other color/animal WP titles; see white buffalo, white stag, Seneca white deer, etc. This makes sense for both the "naturalness" and "recognizability" criteria. (Also, for the same reasons, I find Gray (horse) to be bizarre.) Wolfdog (talk) 19:28, 29 September 2016 (UTC)

Whether you find it bizarre or not, the horse colors are often used in just the way you did in the example sentence. I don't know how many hundreds of times I've heard somebody say, "That horse is a bay, but the one over there is a red dun." White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 15:48, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Fair enough, but is it common to say "That horse over there is a white"? Even if it is among equestrians and horse breeders, I think the "recognizability" and "naturalness" criteria still hold true. Wikipedia titles are meant to be easily understood for a general audience, not just expert hippologists. Wolfdog (talk) 17:18, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

No, it's not common, for the sole reason that white horses themselves are uncommon. My main concern is that titling the article "white horse" makes it sound like it's a specific breed instead of just a color. White Arabian Filly ^Neigh 18:52, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Hatnotes

@Montanabw: In your edit here you replace a hatnote "For other uses, see White horse (disambiguation)." with a hatnote "This article is about visually white horses. For the dominant white gene, see Dominant white. For Sabino-white, see Sabino horse. For gray horses with white hair coats, see Gray (horse). For other uses, see White horse.". Your hatnote is not compliant with Wikipedia policy at WP:HATNOTE and in particular WP:LEGITHAT. Despite "popular misconceptions" (your phrase from the edit summary), " the information belongs in the body of the article, ... . Hatnotes are meant to reduce confusion and direct readers to another article they might have been looking for, not for information about the subject of the article itself." All 3 of the terms in your hatnote are the titles of sections in the actual article, all of which have section hatnotes pointing a main article in that subject. Please revert your edit. Shhhnotsoloud (talk) 09:45, 5 May 2017 (UTC)

I believe that my core concerns are addressed in the parallel discussion taking place at Talk:White horse. So I think we can consolidate the discussion and resolve both issues there. Montanabw^(talk) 04:07, 6 May 2017 (UTC) And, these are guidelines, not policies. Montanabw^(talk) 04:41, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 3 November 2019

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Moved as proposed. bd2412 T 02:20, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

• White (horse) → White horse
• White horse (mythology) → White horses in mythology
• Gray (horse) → Gray horse
• Black (horse) → Black horse
• White horse → White Horse
• Black horse (disambiguation) → Black Horse

– The pagenames make little sense and do not follow any current Wikipedia policy. Per WP:NATURAL, they should be moved to names that are not disambiguated parenthetically. The argument that "white horse" may be confused with a breed has little merit in my opinion, as white buffalo and white stag currently exist and work fine. _{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 12:48, 3 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support. Seems pretty obvious these titles don't make sense. If I had to guess what "Gray (horse)" would be about before reading it, I would've assumed a horse called Gray, not gray horses. Nohomersryan (talk) 23:28, 3 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nom and Ryan. Calidum 17:02, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support Gray and Black moves. Leaning support on the other two, but I have some reservations about WP:PRIMARYTOPIC, per pageviews. White (horse) gets around 60% of the views of White horse (mythology), and not much more than others like White Horse (whisky), White Horse (Laid Back song), and White Horse (Taylor Swift song). I think it's probably fine, since the latter 3 lack long-term significance, and White horse (mythology) is arguably a subtopic of this article. Regardless, I agree that "White (horse)" is a hilariously confusing title, and needs to be changed to something else. Colin M (talk) 20:15, 4 November 2019 (UTC)

• @Colin M:I have added 2 more moves for the disambiguation pages. Per WP:DIFFCAPS, the disambig page can still be at White Horse as it's only the primary topic for the lowercase._{ZXCVBNM (TALK)} 03:38, 5 November 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support 1, 3 and 4 and support 2. White (horse) is literally the worst possible title that contains both those words. Red Slash 23:48, 4 November 2019 (UTC)
• Support White horse, White horses in mythology, Gray horse and Black horse. Move White horse to White horse (disambiguation) (there's a clear primary topic, but capitalisation is probably not needed) and Black horse (disambiguation) to Black Horse (disambiguation) (most are capitalised, but I still think the qualifier is necessary). -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:19, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

  Why is the qualifier needed for Black horse? If someone is typing "Horse" with a capital "H" they could well be looking for something with the proper noun per WP:DIFFCAPS and nearly all uses use "Black Horse" so the capital "H" (with no primary topic) is probably the best title for the DAB per WP:DABNAME. Also most of the entries for White Horse use the capitalization so "White Horse" seems like the best title for that DAB to. Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nomination, Nohomersryan, Calidum, Colin M, Red Slash, Necrothesp and argumentation by Crouch, Swale, although some of these may need to be reargued in follow-up nominations. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 06:39, 10 November 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:White horse (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 12:46, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

What is the name of the horse in File:DominantWhiteHorsesD.jpg?

Hello. Sorry for my poor English.

What is the name of the horse in File:DominantWhiteHorsesD.jpg?

• This horse is a stallion that has the W2 gene.
• This photo was taken before 2007.

For these reasons, I suspect this horse is The White Fox (2002-2010) [3] [4] [5]. But the name is not specified, so please let me know.--霧木諒二 (talk) 13:05, 31 October 2021 (UTC)

The photo source is Haase B, Brooks SA, Schlumbaum A, Azor PJ, Bailey E, et al. (2007) Allelic heterogeneity at the equine KIT locus in dominant white (W) horses. PLoS Genet 3(11): e195. doi:10.1371/journal.pgen.0030195. We can only state what they have in that article. You might be right, but unless we have an additional WP:RS that has a photo of the horse with his name (pedigree query is not considered reliable because anyone can edit, just like WP can’t be used as a source for itself…) we can’t guess per WP:NOR and WP:SYNTH. Montanabw^(talk) 17:37, 31 October 2021 (UTC)