Talk:Wilfrid Voynich

Place of birth

His Polish page says that he was born in Grodno (today in Belarus) and not in Telsze (now Telšiai in Lithuania).Tsf 18:14, 19 November 2006 (UTC)

This is apparently a mistake, since Voynich himself claimed to have been born in Telsze. See for an example his passenger records at ellisisland.org. · Naive cynic · 23:25, 24 November 2006 (UTC)

I added to the external references a link to Voynich's birth record. I guess it will count as "original research" by Wiki standards, so I did not edit anything in the text of the article. The link does clarify the time (Nov 12, 1865), place (Telsze), and parentage (for those interested)Roman geneaolg (talk) 17:52, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

OR can always be added to the relevant articles on the Voynich Wikis (on Wikia - see the Voynich Manuscript talk pages for details).

Note - 12 November 1865 would be the Julian Calendar date in use in the Russian Empire at the time. Jackiespeel (talk) 23:47, 20 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the suggestion about Voynich Wiki's. I added a link there. With regards to the date, it is the other way round. Most often quoted date of his birth (Oct 30) is the Julian date used at the time in Russian Empire. Using our current Gregorian calendar it should be Nov 12. So to sum up - his real birthday is Nov 12.Roman geneaolg (talk) 15:46, 21 February 2016 (UTC)

Shows how the Julian Calendar has faded from general usage (Mount Athos is the most notable present adherent).

Which date did WV use as his 'official birthday'? Jackiespeel (talk) 10:35, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

All available data suggest that he was giving Oct 31 as his birthday. This is consistent with his birth record, with the caveat being that it is a Julian date. It is the same story as with the October Revolution, which started on Nov 7 in our calendar, but Oct 25 Julian (hence the name).Roman geneaolg (talk) 22:24, 22 February 2016 (UTC)

As he used October 31 perhaps both dates (Old Style/O.S. and New Style/N.S.) should be given - this is done with a number of other 'persons of the Russian Empire.' Jackiespeel (talk) 16:59, 23 February 2016 (UTC)

This is a good suggestion. I have seen it with others done in the following way - Gregorian (modern date), followed by [OS Julian date]. The birth record clarifies some other things, as well, with the caveat of OR. Specifically, his father's rank at the time of his birth was Collegiate registrar(Коллежский регистратор), which was the lowest rank at the time (much lower than the one mentioned in the article). Four years later in the birth record of his sister, the father is listed as District secretary(Губернский секретарь), two ranks higher. This suggests that at the time of Michal's birth his father Leonard was just starting his carrier.Roman geneaolg (talk) 00:13, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

If you wish to add material or links to the Wikia article do so. WV is at least as interesting in his own right as his manuscript. Jackiespeel (talk) 10:18, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

BTW He and Ethel had no children - so if you change the family tree appropriately (is there one for George Boole (Ethel's father)?).) Jackiespeel (talk) 10:21, 24 February 2016 (UTC)

Books and writing

Quoted in The Times an exchange: "Is it true you have written books in 20 languages?" "Ah, you English exaggerate - I have only written in 17 languages." Jackiespeel (talk) 22:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

He also bought, in good faith, one of the books that had been stolen from Lincoln Cathedral: which he subsequently returned to the library. The Times, Thursday, May 11, 1916; pg. 4 refers. Jackiespeel (talk) 15:32, 25 September 2009 (UTC)

Date of marriage

According to the Ancestry website the Voynichs married in 1902. Jackiespeel (talk) 17:39, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

This was to further Wilfrid's (successful) application for British naturalisation. Jackiespeel (talk) 00:37, 21 December 2010 (UTC)

Links

I wrote it, so I can I put in a link to [1]? Jackiespeel (talk) 17:40, 21 April 2010 (UTC)

Name

If his name has been 'localised' (Polish/Lithuanian) as the beginning of the text can it be so indicated (as likely to puzzle otherwise). Jackiespeel (talk) 15:35, 31 October 2012 (UTC)

Further, is it Wilfrid Michael (title) or Michael Wilfried (lede text) or Wilfryd (lower text)?
That's two queries in one:

• (a) the order of names
• (b) Wilfrid or Wilfried or Wilfryd?

Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:49, 28 September 2013 (UTC)

'As far as I can see':

Michał Habdank-Wojnicz - baptismal name.

As a revolutionary adopted the use-name Wilfryd.

After coming to London he anglicised his name to Wilfrid Voynich (as 'the natural English spelling').

On his naturalisation documents (available in The National Archives) he refers to himself as Wilfrid Voynich also Wojnicz.

There is no evidence in the extant material as to whether he used/was referred to as Michael after coming to the UK.

He also made use of some pen names for his revolutionary writings.

Does this clarify matters? Jackiespeel (talk) 12:22, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

It certainly does, thanks. So, the name he settled on was Wilfrid Voynich, with no Michael. Are there any objections to moving this page to Wilfrid Voynich? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:21, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

The present set up is WMV with a redirect from 'Wilfrid Voynich' - which seems to be the general WP practice. Jackiespeel (talk) 08:45, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

The general practice is for inaccurate links to redirect to more accurate ones. Such as: Barak Obama redirects to Barack Obama.

You've indicated that this person was known as Wilfrid Voynich, not Wilfrid Michael Voynich. So, if anything, the redirect should be from the 3-word name to the 2-word name, not the other way round as we have at the moment. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:51, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

There is an equal case both ways. Jackiespeel (talk) 09:36, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Can you explain how? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:30, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

(reset) There seem to be a fair number of hits on his full name (as well as WV) - but quite a few sites do 'follow the Wikipedia article'; and Michael is his 'real' name. Jackiespeel (talk) 21:47, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. OK, I see on his naturalisation papers, he actually says he is "Wilfrid Michael Habdank Woynicz, commonly called Wilfrid Michael Voynich". The latter is obviously the final version of the name under which he is notable. As for his original given names, I can't see any evidence they were ever in any order other than "Wilfrid Michał". I've cleaned up the article to get rid of the Wilfrieds and the Wilfryds, improved the chronological flow, and make it more a pleasure to read than a cause for alarm. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:54, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

'While young' he would have been Michael (or local variant); while being a revolutionary he would be Wilfryd to his companions and Michael at home; his 'use given name' between being sent to Siberia and getting to the UK is probably debatable (possibly the local variant on 'the Pole'/'the European' (if he was the only one)); on reaching the UK he settles at some point on Wilfrid. (Possibly if he had not linked up with Sergey Stepnyak-Kravchinsky he might have stayed with Michael.)

This is veering towards 'speculation and interesting original research' (as would resolving my comment below about the journey from Siberia to Hamburg and then London) - perhaps it could be discussed on the equivalent talk page on the Voynich wiki pages on Wikia. Jackiespeel (talk) 12:57, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

I think it should be 'born M H-W' as the Wilfryd/Wilfrid was an assumed name. 17:25, 3 October 2013 (UTC)

In the Post Office Directories of the time Street Listings where his bookshops are variously at 1 Soho Square and in Shaftesbury Avenue he appears as Wilfrid M Voynich and Wilfrid Michael Voynich - so 'his opinion' would probably be for the full name. Jackiespeel (talk) 17:27, 10 October 2013 (UTC)

Could someone please add phonetic spelling or ogg file of his last name since that also bears on the manuscript pronunciation. Thanks Kristinwt (talk) 23:57, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

I think, as with his great-uncle-in-law George Everest, the pronunciation of the surname now is not necessarily that which the person used. Jackiespeel (talk) 10:22, 8 May 2017 (UTC)

'Absences of information'

There is no reference in the material on the web that he had any siblings: and, given that his mother came to the Warsaw prison (a window from which he saw Ethel Boole), it can be deduced his father was dead by then. Nor is there any information on how he returned from Pekin/Beijing to Europe. Jackiespeel (talk) 12:29, 1 October 2013 (UTC)

Birth country

WV's birthplace is given as Lithuania - but he would say that he was born in Russian Poland and fought for Polish independence, should the text not reflect this? Jackiespeel (talk) 10:10, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Nationality

He would have been regarded as a Russian national (even though he was a Polish nationalist) until he acquired British nationality in 1904 (naturalisation papers at The National Archives - see their website). There is no indication that he became a US citizen ([2] is not sure that he did). Jackiespeel (talk) 18:42, 4 February 2015 (UTC)

Leadin

'Wilfrid Voynich, born Wilfrid Voynich' - should be Michał Habdank-Wojnicz? Jackiespeel (talk) 19:29, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Clarified now.

The 'many references' on various websites to him as 'American-Polish' when he discovered the VM are, of course, incorrect - he was British-Polish at the time. Jackiespeel (talk) 13:47, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

References

Would [3] count as a reference? Jackiespeel (talk) 16:42, 15 January 2016 (UTC)

Changed to current link. 16:29, 11 July 2021 (UTC)

Localities

The text says '...Suwałki (a town in northeastern Poland),...' - perhaps it should be 'a town then in (Russian Poland) and now# in ...'? Jackiespeel (talk) 22:32, 28 January 2018 (UTC)

No objections. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:46, 28 January 2018 (UTC)