Talk:William Burges

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Salisbury Chapter House

• Interesting, but usable? KJP1 (talk) 08:04, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
  • Just a warning that the above is a 59,188KB download with many images.SovalValtos (talk) 10:18, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Winscombe Hall, Somerset

Needs some investigation. KJP1 (talk) 06:40, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

Wells

These are interesting, re. Vicars' Close, Wells.What does Crook say.

• Historic England. "Vicars' Hall, Vicars' Close (Grade I) (1383202)". National Heritage List for England. Retrieved 22 September 2024.
• Vic Soc.

KJP1 (talk) 13:06, 22 September 2024 (UTC)

Cause of death

Is there any modern analysis/ interpretation of "caught a chill which left him half paralysed"? People who "catch a chill" don't usually get paralyse and die in three weeks? Martinevans123 (talk) 11:46, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Not that I'm aware of and, without wanted to sound conceited, I probably would have read it! But see Note d of Castell Coch. The late, lamented User:Hchc2009 (not editing, not among the dearly departed!) provided that text. In effect the Victorians called it a "chill" if they really didn't have a clue but the patient was shaky. I doubt there will be a modern study - on what would it be based? But if it were, it could also look at the extent/impact of his opium addiction which Mordaunt Crook gently hints was underplayed. Personally, I think many of his designs were done while he was absolutely off his head! KJP1 (talk) 11:59, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Jesus you gave me a scare there re the beloved Hchc2009. Ceoil (talk) 12:03, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I must admit that opium was my first thought. Does the ODNB offer any more on the subject? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

It does not. Crook wrote it and he says: "On his last visit to Cardiff, 28 March 1881, Burges took a long ride in a dog cart and got very cold. Half paralysed for three weeks, he died at Tower House on 20 April. He was buried in Norwood cemetery, in the tomb he designed for his mother." Which really has nothing that we don't. KJP1 (talk) 12:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Hchc is on opium now? :) Ceoil (talk) 12:19, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Stop sowing confusion and calumny about! But it's good to hear from you. KJP1 (talk) 12:23, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Likewise KJP. I do follow your trials and tribulations here, given our shared interests and outlook. Ceoil (talk) 12:26, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

No need to sow confusion and calumny. Try something more tempting! Martinevans123 (talk) 13:18, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Not entirely dead yet at this end! ;) My theory on the paralysis (utterly OR/speculation!) is it could have been a cold or 'flu infection, followed by a stroke... But I agree with others below, I couldn't find any other evidence from the period. Hchc2009 (talk) 07:46, 30 October 2024 (UTC)

Available sources

• Crook, J. Mordaunt, William Burges and the High Victorian dream (Chicago: University of Chicago Press, 1981 & London: Frances Lincoln, 2013 (repr.)).
• Crook, J. Mordaunt; Axon, Mary; Glenn, Virginia, The Strange genius of William Burges, "art-architect", 1827-1881: a catalogue to a centenary exhibition, organised jointly by the National Museum of Wales, Cardiff, and the Victoria and Albert Museum, London (Cardiff: National Museum of Wales, 1982).
• Williams, Matthew, William Burges, 1827-81 (Norwich: Jarrold Pub., 2004).
  SerialNumber54129 12:05, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks Serial - these, and others, all basically say the same thing - WB's in Cardiff at the end of March 1881, presumably at Cardiff Castle. He takes a long dog-cart trip to Castell Coch, where he gets very cold (was it wet? It often is). He struggles back to London, retires to The Red Bed at the Tower House, lingers there partially paralysed for three weeks, while being visited by many friends including Whistler and Wilde, and dies at a quarter to midnight on 20 April. And that's it. Was there are an inquest? Nobody says. Would one have be usual at that time/in those circumstances? Don't know. Did they issue death certificates then? If so, it's slightly surprising no one has referenced it. He was only 53, but was that unusually young for the late-Victorian period? Not sure. Basically, the information is rather thin. KJP1 (talk) 12:41, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Oh yes, there certainly should be a death certificate. Curiously, however, if you search FreeBMD, you will find that the only William Burgess death registered for the second quarter of 1881 is this one, (confirmed by two transcribers) which gives his age as 51 not 53. And there are no other entries for any 53-year old with that name in any other London borough. So presumably that age is a mistake. I wonder what it says the cause of death was. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:16, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  Very interesting. Does whatever system gave you that allow you to drill down to the detailed entry? That it's Burgess isn't that surprising - he had biographers that misspelt it! But he was certainly 53. KJP1 (talk) 13:25, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  No, that's all FreeBMD will give you. If you want to see the actual certificate, I think you have to order a copy. But given his fame, one might expect to find a facsimile copy somewhere on a genealogy site? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:28, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

That's a pity. Looking at some actuarial charts, 53 doesn't appear at all unusual for an average 1880s death. True, Burges was almost at the top of the scale, economically if not socially, so you'd generally expect to find him at the upper-end. Set against, he was overweight, drank and was a pot-head! KJP1 (talk) 13:30, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Re-reading that, I could almost be describing me! KJP1 (talk) 13:32, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, a bit of a Bohemian? But no mention of the demon drink in the article?? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:36, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Ahem... my mistake, it's Burges, not Burgess. And it's here. But again, no details. And surprised that no-one has added a postem explaining who he was. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:31, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

That's our man! Don't we know any editors who subscribe to those genealogy sites? KJP1 (talk) 13:33, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

In the past I have asked our Chepstow friend... (or he might know of some likely users). Martinevans123 (talk) 13:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

What would you like me to check? I've quickly found a newspaper obit, which says:

William Burges, the well-known architect, died at his residence in Melbury-road, Kensington, on Wednesday last, at the comparatively early age of 53, after having only enjoyed the dignity of A.R.A. for 3 few weeks. He passed through a distinguished career, his works including the carrying out of the additions to and the decoration of Cardiff Castle: the rebuilding of the Cathedral of St. Finbar, Cork, a fine work in the early French 13th century style of architecture, commenced in January, 1865, and completed in November, 1870, and to which the Masons of Cork contributed most munificently; the Speech-room at Harrow; designs for finishing the interior of St. Paul's Cathedral, London, and churches at Studley and Skelton, Yorkshire.

Some personal family trees give his full name as William Alexander Burges, who married Louisa Maria Dowling in 1850 and had four children. Are they wrong? Ghmyrtle (talk) 13:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Many thanks Guy. We were trying to ascertain his actual cause of death. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:58, 28 October 2024 (UTC) (p.s. as far as I know, this William Burges never married)

I can't find anything more than what is in the article now - that he caught a chill, was semi-paralysed, and died. We are not medical experts, and we go with what has been published, of course - however odd it may seem to us. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

• Replies should probably be moved to the above section: it was a coincidence that I posted here at the same time as you were discussing paralysis. I was merely noting "sources I have access too if anyone wants them" rather than "sources of relevance to Bruges' bizarrre death"; if the latter, I would have used a L3 heading to indicate. Cheers! SerialNumber54129 14:57, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

  We could just change your L2 heading into emboldened text? I think we all knew what you intended. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:00, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Ghmyrtle - many thanks indeed for taking a look. It’s very interesting although it doesn’t take us forward on cause of death. As to his wife and four children, the sources are very wrong indeed. Another of my, wholly OR, beliefs about WB is that he was a bachelor of the highly confirmed kind. Although those two nurseries at the Tower House have always been rather inexplicable. Thanks again. KJP1 (talk) 17:07, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

I think that just goes to show - if we didn't know already - that online family tree sources are not reliable. It seems that they have confused two William Burges[s]. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:34, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Easily done, even without spelling mistakes... Martinevans123 (talk) 17:37, 28 October 2024 (UTC)

Just realised I called him William Bruges up there *facepalm* ...in Burges, of course, but not In Bruges. SerialNumber54129 17:51, 28 October 2024 (UTC)