Talk:William Longsword

Disambiguation

How do we disambiguate William Longsword, Earl of Salisbury? RickK 04:26, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Well, we could move this article to William Longsword of Normandy and then make this page a disambiguation page. Everyking 04:51, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

That sounds good. RickK 00:31, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

There's already an article for the Earl at William de Longespee, 3rd Earl of Salisbury (the French version of the name being how the Dictionary of National Biography lists him) but disambiguation here is still useful. Loren Rosen 14:44, 13 Apr 2004 (UTC)

This is now the Duke of Normandy's page. William Longsword is a disambig page. Srnec 01:46, 30 January 2006 (UTC)

Title

Regarding Richard's title: He was not, of course, the "duke" of Normandy, but the title I've seen associated with him in various sources is "patrician." And I wonder what the source is for calling him a "jarl"; is that just an assumption because of his Scandinavian roots? --Michael K. Smith 00:08, 22 February 2006 (UTC)

Birth

He was born overseas in one of the many Viking territories before his father Rollo settled in northern France.

I don't think so. Hrolf was in Normandy in the late 880s, and even if he made trips backhome, he appears to have been in Normandy to stay shortly after 900. I can't cite a source off the top of my head for this, but I thought it was generally accepted that William wad born illegitimately c.910 in the vicinity of Rouen. And was his mother not known as Poppa "of Bayeux"? --Michael K. Smith 00:59, 24 February 2006 (UTC)

What i think should be mentioned in this article is like his father, and his son after him, Danish was the spoken language of Normandy at the time. English n proud (talk) 15:42, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I corrected that Poppa was Rollo's wife more danico, not his Christian wife, because she is explicitly for whom William of Jumieges uses that term. I also shortened the statement to be that her parentage is uncertain, full stop, because Dudo is just about the most notoriously unreliable source ever. "Undoubtedly of Frankish nobility" is an unsubstantiated opinion that smacks of "hired by Richard I." AWIBS 30 Nov 2021

The article's references support "born overseas", possibly Great Britain, so it's strange that "Bayeux or Rouen" appears in the info box. Are there any references supporting that? The info box of https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guillaume_Ier_de_Normandie has Lieu de naissance Grande-Bretagne. Mcljlm (talk) 19:32, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

External link

This link no longer appears to be good.

• Planctus for William

Fixed, moved back to article. Bearpatch (talk) 23:30, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Keats-Rohan Poppa of Bayeux reference

A question came up regarding citing the article by Katherine Keats-Rohan [Poppa of Bayeux, TAG 72, No. 4, pp. 187 – 204] which I originally used it to present her solution, which showed both traditional views of Poppa’s parentage were actually compatible. Agricolae left a comment to the effect that it created too much detail and was a ‘pet theory’ and moved the citation. Regardless, this caused me to reread the article . In doing so I determined that, while her solution is quoted by other authors, it is in fact an original theory—a unique analysis of previously published sources—and as such would seem to violate the WP:NOR policy. In any case to avoid this potential problem I simplified the sentences and removed this particular citation. I also added better quality published sources. Bearpatch (talk) 20:34, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

This is not my understanding of the NOR policy - she conducted original research and presented her findings, we were very briefly summarizing those findings (that she presented possible reconstructions). Christian Settipani also carried out an analysis and came up with an alternative scenario. Citing one and not the other made no sense. Os to being OR, it is no different than citing Douglas' English Historical Review article on Rollo - he also did original research and published his findings. As to the way it now reads, we really should give the dates of the sources - that the Annals of Jumieges are from more than a century after Dudo's writings, and more than two centuries after what is being described. Further, the Annals of Jumieges are derivitive - it was the Annals of Rouen that first presented this supposed parentage of Poppa, which first reported this (otherwise unknown to history) count Guy of Senlis. It would be better to give the true earliest origin of this information. The history of the question, including both Settipani and Keats-Rohan hypotheses, are discussed on the Baldwin page (and as an FASG, he qualifies as an expert, and it is (at least nominally) peer reviewed, so it qualifies as a WP:RS). Agricolae (talk) 21:32, 8 February 2012 (UTC)

Title

I suggest that the "I" is superfluous. This can only disambiguate him from William the Conqueror and William Adelin, which do not have a number. PatGallacher (talk) 13:31, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 14 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Good arguments that this bloke is the primary topic. Jenks24 (talk) 14:27, 23 October 2017 (UTC)

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• William I Longsword → William Longsword
• William Longsword → William Longsword (disambiguation)

– I suggest this person is the primary meaning of "William Longsword". The other possible meanings are not described by this plain name. The 'I' disambiguates him from William the Conqueror and William Adelin, a confused way of operating, since although rulers of Normandy they are not described by numbers. PatGallacher (talk) 23:48, 14 October 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose, since the disambig page says this is the nickname of a bunch of people. Why pick this one as primary, when it's ambiguous? Dicklyon (talk) 04:37, 15 October 2017 (UTC)
  • I think you sometimes get this in some Wikipedia discussions, people implicitly questioning the whole concept of WP:PRIMARYTOPIC. PatGallacher (talk) 00:54, 22 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support. I think this is a case where hat notes will help readers better than unintuitive disambiguation. This person is not known as "William I Longsword", it's just "William Longsword". Additionally, he's the most prominent figure bearing this name: 9 of 10 sources on the first page of a Google Books search for "William Longsword" intend this person.[1] The only other "William Longsword" who is remotely as prominent as the Norman ruler is William Longespée, 3rd Earl of Salisbury, and he's better known as, well, "William Longespée" rather than "William Longsword".--Cúchullain ^t/c 14:29, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
• Support per Cúchullain. Hatnotes will help readers better than unintuitive disambiguation in this case. Only crusading Montferrat is also commonly known by the English nickname "William Longsword", I think. Srnec (talk) 18:19, 21 October 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Gerloc

There are several variations for the name of William's sister, including Gerletta mentioned in Gerloc's cited source. Maybe anyway it and articles in other languages entitled Gerloc should accord with the French article Adèle de Normandie (morte en 962) https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad%C3%A8le_de_Normandie_(morte_en_962) with (Rollo's daughter) replacing the year since that's not certain. Mcljlm (talk) 00:17, 25 January 2023 (UTC)