Talk:William Wentworth

Opener

'He was the first native-born Australian to achieve a reputation overseas, and a leading advocate for self-government for the Australian colonies'. This sounds very subjective to me... Reference? mcarneyaus

Untitled

In what way was he "associated" with the expedition? Did he participate? Fund it? What? RickK 23:39, 16 Aug 2003 (UTC)

Biography assessment rating comment

The article may be improved by following the WikiProject Biography 11 easy steps to producing at least a B article. --KenWalker | Talk 00:32, 30 June 2007 (UTC) --60.226.13.126 (talk) 04:00, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Date of birth- 1790, 1792, 1793 or some other date

David.moreno72

I have no doubt that the coffin has on it 26 October 1793 as the date of the birth of William Charles Wentworth . Indeed a short biography written in 1911, by Lewis Deer and John Barr, and an even a shorter one by K.R Kramp in 1923, have the same date.

However more recent research by John Ritchie and Andrew Tink (both referred to in the Article) suggests that he was born more than three years earlier in August 1790. Ritchie gives the date as 13 August, while Tink is content to leave it as August. Hence the question mark after 13. Perhaps the mis-information in the date was designed to hide his illegitimacy and the fact that his mother was a convict. Trahelliven (talk) 20:55, 30 April 2012 (UTC)

Thank-you for for comments. I must agree there has been a lot of discussion about the birthdate of Wentworth going back nearly 100 years. As a result of this there will be a number of dates flying around. So the question is, how do we know which is correct. The answer is we don't know. What we do need to look at is the public record, and what dates have been officially used. The first would be his birth certificate. Even if the actual birthdate is different from the birth certificate, the birth certificate date in my opinion trumps over what someone might say different in a journal or diary. If a birth certificate is not available, then any dates on monuments, gravestones or plaques on coffins are the next best thing. Wentworth has a pure silver plaque that has engraved 26 Oct 1793. So if you show a birth certificate that has 13 Aug 1790, I will then accept that new date. Also when in comes to Wentworth's birthdate, all the historical societies and government celebrations have been previously held on 26 Oct for over 100 years after his death. Even if a recent biography written by an ex-politician about Wentworth has unveiled something new, 26 Oct 1793 has been traditionally his birthday, and I think that it should at least be mentioned in Wikipedia. David.moreno72 (talk) 03:59, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

David.moreno72

To complicate the picture, here is a list of Books that mention a date of birth:-

Lewis Deer and John Barr: 1911: 26 October 1793; K R Kramp: 1923: 26 October 1793; Historic Houses Trust: 1982: 1790; Carol Liston: 1988: 1790?; Historic Houses Trust: 1993: 1790?; John Ritchie: 1997: 13 August 1790; Historic Houses Trust: 2006: 1790; Andrew Tink: 2009: August 1790.

The books of 1911 and 1923 show a sanitised version of his birth and life. Neither mention that his father was three times tried for highway robbery at the Old Bailey, nor do they mention his mother (except for her death in 1800), let alone that she was a convict and not married to Wentworth's father. They do not mention his wife Sarah, the illegitimate daughter of two convicts with whom he lived and had two children before they were married. Indeed the first book has a page in the beginning with nothing but the following seven words:- TO THE BOYS AND GIRLS OF AUSTRALIA. Trahelliven (talk) 11:22, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Interesting point. Even if there were 100 books that say 1790, they cannot compete with 1 birth certificate or a coffin plaque. I still put the challenge out to you. What does his birth certificate say? If that cannot be provided, then the date on the plaque must stand. There have been a number of errors when it comes to birth and death dates of famous people, I should know, as i have corrected a number of pages, most recently Paul Edmund de Strzelecki. He even has a monument with the wrong date on it, so which is correct. Well, I found a report on the date on his birth certificate and that was the date that I used. Also, for many years, there was a celebration every Oct 26 at Wentworth's residence, Vaucluse house. I actually came across Wentworth in the Australian Almanac, which gives his birthdate as Oct 26 1793, which is when i checked that with the Wikipedia page , and i found that it had been changed to 1790. David.moreno72 (talk) 12:58, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

David.moreno72

A birth certificate would be handy, but in 1790, in Norfolk Island, that is out of the question. I think this discussion should best be continued on Wentworth's talk page Talk:William Wentworth where I shall be ataching a transcription of a note that I was sent a few months ago. If you have not read either Ritchie or Tink, I am sure that you can find them in the library. Ritchie is out of print but Tink is readily available. Trahelliven (talk) 22:56, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

All of the above copied from User talk:David.moreno72 on 2 May 2012

Note written on question of Wentworth's date of birth

D'Arcy Wentworth, fourth son of D'Arcy, an Innkeeper, and Martha Dixon, was born on 14 February 1762, probably at Seagoe, near Portadown, co. Armagh. D'Arcy enlisted in the 1st Ulster Provincial Regiment in 1782 and served until the Regiment was reduced at the end of the war "all of this time he conducted himself as became a good soldier". D'Arcy was described as "a handsome, tall man with blue eyes who was invariably popular with all classes and both sexes". D'Arcy then studied medicine under Dr Alex Patton at Tanderagee and later went to London to pursue his medical studies. During his time in England D'Arcy made himself known to his distant "uncle", Earl Fitzwilliam. It has been said that in England he mixed with high society and lived beyond his means and became a highwayman. He was subsequently charged with a number of highway robberies but was acquitted on each occasion. The London Chronicle reported that at a committal hearing at the Bow Street Public Office on 12 November 1789 "Among the many people of fashion who attended this examination were, his Royal Highness the Duke of Cumberland, the Duke of Hamilton, Colonels Gwyn and Bishop, &c." At his trial at the Old Bailey Sessions on 9 December 1789 D'Arcy was discharged and he immediately went to Portsmouth to join the "Neptune", a ship of the Second Fleet, which was about to sail for Sydney. The "Neptune", a vessel of 809 tons, under Master Donald Trail, sailed in company with the "Surprise" and "Scarborough" on 19 January 1790 and arrived in Sydney on 28 June 1790. There was horrendous loss of life during the voyage and Donald Trail escaped prosecution for his treatment of the convicts on the vessel by absconding. Also on the "Neptune" was Catherine Crowley, a convict, who, on 30 July 1788 at the Stafford Assizes, had been sentenced to seven years transportation for stealing a large quantity of clothing from a house in Newcastle-under-Lyme. It has been stated that Catherine had previously worked on the Fitzwilliam estate in Staffordshire and that D'Arcy had met her there earlier but this has not been confirmed.

Shortly after his arrival in Sydney D'Arcy Wentworth sailed on the "Surprise" for Norfolk Island, arriving there on 7 August 1790. Catherine Crowley arrived there on the same vessel. In the past there have been varying dates given for the birth on Norfolk Island of their first son, William Charles Wentworth, who later became a noted Australian Explorer and Statesman. A popular date shown in some publications for his birth was October 1793 but this could not have been correct as his brother D'Arcy was born on Norfolk Island on 23 June 1793. The Norfolk Island Victualling Records [p.75a] (AONSW) show that CROWLEY, William (convict child) arrived at Norfolk Island Au. 1790, departed Feb. 19, 1796. If these records are correct William Charles was born before Catherine had set foot on Norfolk Island. However, Professor John Ritchie in his Book "The Wentworths Father and Son", states that in a letter to Earl Fitzwilliam dated 13 November 1811 D'Arcy gives the date of William's birth as 13 August 1790. John Ritchie also states that because of a squall the vessel was forced to shelter in Cascade Bay and while anchored there William was born. The Victualling Records show the names of the three children as CROWLEY (William, Dorset, and Matthew. Also on the Island was a convict named Sarah Dorset so it is likely that this is where the Dorset name came from). D'Arcy, Catherine, and the three children, departed Norfolk Island on 19 February 1796 for Sydney on board the "Reliance". After arrival in Sydney these children were known as William Charles, D'Arcy, and John Wentworth. In the past there was some suggestion that D'Arcy and Catherine had married on Norfolk Island and that the records had gone astray. The Crowley names of the children whilst on the Island tend to refute this and it is now generally accepted that they did not marry. On 1 December 1796 D'Arcy took up an appointment as Assistant Surgeon at Parramatta where Catherine died on 6 January 1800. Burke's "Colonial Gentry" shows a fourth child, Martha, "d. young" but no other record of Martha has been found. Perhaps Catherine died from the after effects of the birth of Martha. Catherine was buried in St John's Cemetery, Parramatta, and, after D'Arcy's death on 7 July 1827, her remains were moved from a contiguous grave to D'Arcy's Vault in St John's. Also buried in the Vault is D'Arcy's son, Major D'Arcy, the first Australian born person to be commissioned in the British Army, and D'Arcy and Ann Lawes' eldest daughter, Martha (widow of John Reddall; It is not known why Martha was buried in D’Arcy’s Vault rather than with her husband in the Reddall Vault in St. Peter’s Church of England Cemetery at Campbelltown where John’s father, the Reverend Thomas Reddall was the Rector for about forty years). Unfortunately, when D’Arcy’s Vault was restored some years back the restorer confused some of the Inscription and it now shows Major D'Arcy being of the 65th Regiment instead of the 63rd Regiment, and Martha Reddall is shown as “his daughter by another mother in the 54 year of her age" when it should be 34. An earlier publication by V Goodin on St John's Cemetery shows the correct Inscription. It might also be said that there are a number of errors, falsifications and omissions in the Pedigree for “Wentworths of Vaucluse” in Burke’s “Colonial Gentry” to cover up some facts that apparently it was not wished to disclose. This is so even though the Pedigree was approved by the Ulster King of Arms. Trahelliven (talk) 23:06, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

On William's only younger brother D'Arcy coffin was a simple inscription "Major D'Arcy Wentworth. Aged 65 years. Died 31st July, 1861." This would give his birth year at around 1796, so at 1793, William can still be his older brother. http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article60486378

On William's coffin bore the inscription "William Charles Wentworth, born Oct. 26th, 1793 ; died March 20th, 1872" and has been officially celebrated on Oct 26 ever since. see http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article15808294 and http://nla.gov.au/nla.news-article63230074

It doesn't matter if William was born 13 August 1790 during the voyage to Norfolk Island, his official legal birthdate is Oct 26 1793, as recorded by the government. This is the date that should be in Wikipedia. David.moreno72 (talk) 02:43, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

David.moreno72

Are you content to leave the date as it stand? i.e 13? August 1790. Trahelliven (talk) 06:52, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

David.moreno72

1 It appears that you have not read John Ritchie where he says on page 40 - On 26 June the Surrprize anchored in Sydney Cove. There, three days later, the Neptune and the Scarborough joined her .

2 Crowley, Parry or Williams? I shall look at the vessel's records.

3 26 October 1793 HAS been celebrated as his birthdate for at least 100 years. The use of the present perfect tense implies that it is still celebrared on 26 October. That is not the case since at least 1960. I have altered to:- 26 October 1793 was celebrated as his birthdate for some years. Trahelliven (talk) 04:43, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/15808294 Here is one of the last celebrations http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/43019097 in 1967 Ancenstry.com has a record of his birth certificate which says Oct 26 1793. Case Closed ! David.moreno72 (talk) 07:47, 3 May 2012 (UTC)

Children and descendants of WCW I

• This what I believe is a good policy on listing children and other descendants.

No living persons should be included at all unless that person is particularly notewothy. Provided the descent is not too remote, noteworthy descendants, whether living or not, should be included along with the chain of descent. Otherwise living children should not be included. You have listed six living great great grandchildren. There are at least twenty two other great great grandchildren. Are you planning to list all of them in due course with their descent from WCW I? Other than including W C Wentworth (1907-2003) and his nephew Mungo,I think the list should finish with the children of the original WCW (unless you can find someone else noteworthy).Trahelliven (talk) 03:35, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Defence of killers in Myall Creek Massacre

Seems our good Billy didn't approve of the hanging of some killers who slaughtered ~28 aboriginals at Myall Creek. In the relevant article see: [33] see Sydney Morning Herald 10 Dec 1838 (editorial) and 29 June 1849, p2, Wentworth in the Legislative Council, Wednesday, 27 Jun 1849 ```` — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.173.12.181 (talk) 11:41, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

Length of article

As I set out in the article on Sarah Wentworth, this article is too long. I propose shortening it.Trahelliven (talk) 23:52, 30 January 2024 (UTC)

@Trahelliven I have gone to considerable lengths to add what I believe was overlooked information about Wentworth to this page, as well as to related pages, which has coincided with an increase in viewership. However I must admit on comparison with the pages on Lachlan Macquarie and Arthur Phillip this one is now indeed slightly longer. I may tackle this on my own later, but if there are any sections you believe are worthy of cutting or paraphrasing please do say so here. This is a task which requires caution as I find the article was at one stage lacking in substance and I wish not for it to move backward toward such a state. Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 01:11, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

I must cofess that I have already altered both articles. In particular I have edited the opening of the article on Wenworth by removing some surplus words. Further to avoid confusion, beause womwn can change their surnames, I think it is a good practice to call a male by his last name and a femal by har first name tht i.e Wentworth and Sarah.

I must confess that Wentworth and Sarah are my great-great grand parents Trahelliven (talk) 08:14, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

@Trahelliven I will look at this later and possible make some alterations of my own now that you have raised the point.

Also, that is incredible! I am very fascinated by your great-great grandparents and I will message you on your talk page about this later. Cheers, Will Thorpe (talk) 12:02, 31 January 2024 (UTC)