Talk:William Windsor (goat)/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer:  fetchcomms☛ 03:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Seems good after a brief look-through. I'll leave a few comments soon.  fetchcomms☛ 03:52, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Comments

• "He served as a lance corporal from 2001 until 2009, except for a three month period in 2006 when he was demoted to fusilier, after unacceptable behaviour during the Queens' birthday celebrations while deployed on active service with the battalion on Cyprus." — three-month, with a dash, maybe? The "unacceptable behaviour" part could use some elaboration here, or maybe rephrased, particularly the "unacceptable" (change to improper?). Queens'--several Queens were celebrating? "Deployed on active service"--not quite sure if it is grammatically correct, maybe active duty? but it might be fine as-is.  fetchcomms☛ 04:00, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

Added ndash to 'three-months'; changed 'unacceptable' to 'inappropriate' (agreed, better). Fixed apostrophe of multiple Queens. Changed to 'active service' - agreed, better grammar.  Chzz  ►  04:27, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Maybe make the image in the infobox smaller? 230px is where I usually aim for. Also, should it have a caption? As this is GA, I won't worry too much about alt text, although it probably shouldn't take long for only two images.

Changed to 230px; added ALT text on both  Chzz  ►  04:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• "... before dying on 20 January 1915. He was awarded the 1914 Star, British War Medal and the Victory Medal." He got the awards before or after he died? Right now, it seems to imply he was awarded them posthumously.

He was awarded the star in 1914, and died in '15 cert pic. I could not verify the other awards, so I removed them, and have rephrased it into order.  Chzz  ►  04:47, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

The awards were all posthumous - the 1914 Star wasn't created until 1917. If you got the 1914 Star, the other two came automatically (and it's what the two lines above the 1914 star on the Medal Index Card are referring to, BWM and Victory. David Underdown (talk) 17:20, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Perhaps add where the zoo is located? At first I thought it was in Wales, until I saw that it was in Bedfordshire, England from its own article.

I've added " in Bedfordshire" - is that enough, or should I put 'England'? We could wikilink it, if you like, but the zoo is linked further on, in the 'retirement' portion. Whatever you think best is fine by me.  Chzz  ►  05:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

That's fine, just didn't realize it at first.  fetchcomms☛ 18:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• "... when he presented them to Queen Victoria as a gift in 1837 upon her accession to the throne." accession or ascension?

 fetchcomms☛ 04:26, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

"Accession" would appear to be the correct term; e.g. here.  Chzz  ►  05:02, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Is there any mention of what happened to the first wild goat at Bunker Hill? How exactly does its walking onto the field pertain to "the tradition of having goats in the military" (i.e., did they take the goat back as a mascot or something?)

I haven't found anything, more than this; The tradition dates back to a wild goat leading the regimental colours off the battle field after the battle of Bunker Hill and a goat has served with the battalion ever since.. From non-reliable sources, it would appear that the unit took a goat as food, and when it walked onto the field, they decided to 'adopt' it as a mascot. Sorry, I cannot find supporting RS references for this at the moment.  Chzz  ►  20:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• Also describe what sort of action Taffy saw -- have goats been in actual combat, etc.?

The national archives states that Taffy saw active service in the Retreat from Mons, the first great Battle of Ypres and Gheuveldt and finally, Festubert and Givenchy. - the actual nature of this service is not specified.  Chzz  ►  20:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• "The Goat Major, Lance Corporal Dai Davies," and "Billy's full-time handler was Lance-Corporal Ryan Arthur, who carried the title of 'Goat Major.'" Are all of his other non-primary handlers given the same "Goat" title? Also, Lance-Corporal or without the dash for consistency (The U.S. has no dash, but I think the UK does?)

• As I understand things, there is one, unique role, 'goat major' - responsible for the welfare of the current goat.
• Lance-Corporal seems to be hyphenated in BritEng; it also seems to be capitalized. I changed all to that, and improved wikilink to the specific section.  Chzz  ►  20:34, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• "Billy was accused of " is there a better word than accused, or is that how the source put it?

No, it's not from source, it is my own paraphrasing; I was trying to state the 'charges' prior to explaining his appearance before the CO. It actually used to read, As a result of his actions, Billy was marched before his commanding officer, Huw James, after being reported for "unacceptable behaviour" - but that was changed as a claimed 'copyright problem' with this edit. If you have any suggestions for better phrasing, that's all fine by me.  Chzz  ►  21:01, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

I can't think up a better one, and the current wording isn't really bad or anything, so that's fine.  fetchcomms☛ 16:05, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

• "Lieutenant Colonal" Colonel? and is there a dash here or not?

No dash, apparently - Lieutenant Colonel - I've changed to this, wikilinked, and corrected spelling/caps  Chzz  ►  21:01, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

 fetchcomms☛ 18:36, 15 March 2010 (UTC)

• He retired in May 2009 and the replacement was to be chosen that June. Is there any coverage of who that replacement was, and at least update the wording because it is now 2010.  fetchcomms☛ 17:43, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

• If possible, expand the lede a bit, but this isn't a particularly long article anyhow, so it's not a big deal.  fetchcomms☛ 17:55, 16 March 2010 (UTC)

I am working on this right now. There are updates re. the replacement, which I will add very soon. Thanks,  Chzz  ►  13:52, 27 March 2010 (UTC)

OK; I've expanded the 'retirement' to cover the replacement, hopefully addressing that issue. Sorry for the delay. I also have something to add about the herd, and contraception being used to control their numbers - but that can wait, and shouldn't affect this process. Let me know of anything else that is required, thanks again.  Chzz  ►  18:37, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Arb 31 March break

• "On 15 June 2009 at 03:00, thirty members of 1st battalion" should be "... of the 1st Battalion"?

No, not really; it's OK. Like, "2 members of Spandau Ballet" or something. Erm. I can't find the exact grammatical rule, I just kinda know it is correct. I'll try and find proof later.  Chzz  ►  01:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Checked here, on RD - so, seems OK.  Chzz  ►  11:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• "hoping to catch the goats in a docile state" is that where all the military goats come from? If so, maybe mention in history, or at least say "the goats living there" or something.

Yes; they all come from the herd in Orme; I want to clarify that. I have some stuff to add, about the herd. I want to rearrange it a bit.  Chzz  ►  01:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 Doing...

Have now added considerable background re. the herd.  Chzz  ►  13:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• actually the whole sentence "On 15 June 2009 at 03:00, thirty members of 1st battalion set off to Great Orme in Llandudno, hoping to catch the goats in a docile state,[21][22] lead by Lieutenant Colonel Nick Lock (Commanding Officer), the Goat Major and a team of vets" is a bit run-on-ish, maybe move around to "On 15 June 2009 at 03:00, thirty members of the 1st Battalion, lead by Lieutenant Colonel Nick Lock (Commanding Officer), the Goat Major and a team of vets, set off to Great Orme in Llanddno, hoping to catch the goats in a docile state"?

Not sure; that's a bit clumsy too, because of the separation - ie where it says "the goat major" - doesn't scan right. I'll have a think.  Chzz  ►  01:33, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 Doing...

I have now restructured that part.  Chzz  ►  13:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• "Gavin O’Connor said, "we are..." capitalize the "W" for "We"

 Done

• "... and a team player"[23]" period needed

 Done

• "With some difficulty..." any particular difficulty mentioned in source?

Yes; direct quotes are, "We chose the early hours because the goats are just waking up and can’t bolt that fast. But we were proven wrong! We failed on two attempts to round up nanny goats, but it was all good fun.” - I didn't think that this detail would be worth adding; what do you think?  Chzz  ►  01:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

• "The new William Windsor will begin as a fusilier" they are all named "William Windsor"? mention that as well

Yes, they are; OK, I will add this in, with the other stuff I'm working on.  Chzz  ►  01:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 Doing...

Hopefully, this is now clear enough?  Chzz  ►  13:30, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• References: most dates are "Month DD, YYYY", but some are "DD Month YYYY", try to make them consistent (British is the latter method, right?) fetchcomms☛ 20:50, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

Changed to DD MMMM YYYY throughout  Chzz  ►  01:55, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done

• Also, the external links, the first names publisher in the link, last two the publisher's name is not linked, find a consistent method. And "YouTube" has the middle "T" caps.  fetchcomms☛ 21:39, 30 March 2010 (UTC)

 Done

April 1

I have added some new material and rearranged the 'history' and the 'retirement and replacement' to hopefully address the concerns noted above. Please let me know if that is satisfactory. I have also added some information about the herd, and contraception - and brought the article up-to-date.  Chzz  ►  13:14, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• Not sure what RSPCA is, link or write out full, if already mentioned in full, add (RSPCA) to other mention, etc.

Excellent point, thanks. Any English person would know it. I've wikilinked it to Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals - will that do?  Chzz  ►  21:46, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Yep, thought it was a British thing.  fetchcomms☛ 22:18, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• "original herd,[11] </ref>," remove the extra tag or fix if something is wrong

Oops, fixed  Chzz  ►  21:47, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• "population - he" and "number 25142301 - which" correct dash usage?

Checked with WP:MOSDASH and the latter appears correct, however, in the former case, I think just a semi-colon will suffice. I've changed it to that.  Chzz  ►  22:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• "born in Whipsnade Zoo[12] " period needed

Yep, done.  Chzz  ►  22:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• "He was presented to the regiment by Queen Elizabeth II in 2001.[13] He is said to be friendly and likes meeting people.[1] The tradition is not new: since 1844, the British Monarchy has presented an unbroken series of Kashmir goats to the Royal Welch Fusiliers from the crown's own royal herd.[6]" move the tradition part before the friendly part to be more clear, or move the presented to the regiment after the friendly part

I think the 'friendly' part didn't fit at all there, nor was it really warranted elsewhere - so I've removed it.  Chzz  ►  22:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• "replacement goat, the Batallion helped" typo in "Battalion"?

Yep, sorry, crept in with recent edits. Fixed.  Chzz  ►  22:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

• (picky) extra line break at the end of "See also"

Removed.  Chzz  ►  22:15, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

 fetchcomms☛ 21:37, 1 April 2010 (UTC)

Just a few more little things, and not sure about the lance corporal thing below:

• "Taffy, of 2nd Battalion, Welsh Regiment" and "thirty members of 1st battalion" is the "b" in "battalion" capitalized, or is it just because the former also includes "Welsh Regiment" making it official or something?

This has been debated, the conclusion being that it is "1st Battalion" but "the battalion" - I've just checked throughout, and that standard is now maintained (1 correction made)  Chzz  ►  20:15, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

• "The royal goat herd was originally obtained from[6] Mohammad Shah Qajar" rather odd place for the citation

Yes; it was left behind from a bit of reshuffling; the same ref is at the end of the sentence, which it verifies; this one is not needed. Removed.  Chzz  ►  20:18, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

• Maybe merge "Early years" with "Career" as it is rather short and does not focus completely on his early years, but also background

Agreed; I've merged them, keeping the heading 'career' - hope that is OK.  Chzz  ►  20:24, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Yep, that's fine.  fetchcomms☛ 21:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• In addition to the lance corporal thing, is "goat major" always capitalized or lowercase sometimes, or always?

I honestly do not know. I need help with this whole caps/titles thing. Some people have advised one system, others another. I need help, to get that resolved. Personally, I would have thought that "Lieutenant", "Colonel", "Goat Major" etc would be capitals, but I do not know the actual standard in Wikipedia. See below.  Chzz  ►  20:27, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

WP:MOSCAPS#Military titles suggests ordinary ranks should be lwoer-cased unless referring to e.g. Lieutenant Bloggs. Goat Major is a slightly trickier one, it's not a rank but an appointment (and a unique one at that), but in most cases appointments are treated much like ranks - in British usage regimental sergeant major is an appointment held by a warrant officer. David Underdown (talk) 10:35, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Accepted; I will detail this below, in the section "Capitalization of ranks". Thank you for the input.  Chzz  ►  23:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

• "Billy received his promotion from the colonel of the Royal Welsh Regiment, Brigadier Roderick Porter.[10] As a result of regaining his rank, he also regained his membership of the Corporals' Mess.[10]" The cites are the same, the first could just be removed

 fetchcomms☛ 14:59, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Because it is two separate sentences, with a full-stop, I though I would have to use the reference twice, to make it clear that the first sentence was referenced. I am not clear on this either; if you want, we can remove it.  Chzz  ►  20:30, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

I don't care either way (this is a short article so an extra ref here or there won't hurt)

• One more thing: ref 12 is a bit odd on the accessdate--^ "Right royal return for Billy the goat!". ZSL Whipsnade Zoo. http://www.zsl.org/zsl-whipsnade-zoo/news/right-royal-return-for-billy-the-goat,589,NS.html. Retrieved 2010-04-01. The rest have the retrieved part not as a new sentence and no period at end.  fetchcomms☛ 21:47, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Fixed; it was using 'cite web' and the convention within the article is to use the all-encompassing 'citation' template instead. Changed to that, for consistent ref style.  Chzz  ►  23:15, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

Capitalization of ranks

(note, this subsection renamed from "Lance corporal" to clarify an issue raised above  Chzz  ►  23:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC))

Sorry if I am interrupting the humor of this great article. Just a technical point. I have researched "lance corporal", only to find it is primarily used without a hyphen, but in the Lance corporal article, the British section uses the hyphen. But in some articles about British lance-(?)corporals, it is not hyphenated. Shall I try to bring some consistency to the various articles, or leave the British as lance-corporals? รัก-ไทย (talk) 19:32, 4 April 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure; there seems to be some question about it. Do you think we could check somewhere - maybe refdesk, or maybe WT:MILHIST? To seek clarification? I haven't asked yet; thought I'd see what someone else suggested.  Chzz  ►  20:01, 5 April 2010 (UTC)

Adopted standard for this article per the above comment from David Underdown, and following research, unless any alternative consensus is developed, the accepted convention is as follows;

• Ranks will be capitalized only when used as a proper noun.

• Example 1: The leader was Lance Corporal Smith.
• Example 2: Jones was a lance corporal in the army..

• Hyphenation - this is a British English article, so I am using the guidance of the Times; "Hyphenate those ranks consisting of a compound of two individual designations, eg, Major-General, Lieutenant-General, Lieutenant-Colonel, Sergeant-Major etc, but not compounds such as Staff Sergeant, Lance Corporal." - Online Style Guide - Armed Forces from the Times newspaper online, July 10, 2009. "Goat Major" therefore is not hyphenated.

I will now carefully check all ranks throughout the article, using this standard.  Chzz  ►  23:38, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

 Done  Chzz  ►  03:28, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

• As all the issues have been addressed, I'm passing the GAN. The article is well-developed, well sourced, and the minor consistency errors have been fixed. Great job; hope to see improvement continuing and if more info is available to make this an FA sometime.  fetchcomms☛ 01:37, 8 April 2010 (UTC)

Thank you to Fetchcomms and everyone else who helped.  Chzz  ►  10:12, 8 April 2010 (UTC)