Talk:Willie "the Lion" Smith

Deleted data

I have deleted the following:

Samples

• of "Finger Buster" by Willie The Lion Smith, a long-unreleased piano solo from one of the giants of stride

as it stands, there seems to be something missing and I do not know how to fix it. If anyone knows how to do so, please return it to article. Thanx. --Technopat 11:56, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Citation formatting, Jan 10, 1939 session

I made a special mention of Willie Smith's Commodore solo session of Jan 10, 1939. It is often cited, in one way or another, as the single more important recording session of his career. This is not really a controversial claim. Every online review I've found of his work says as much. And most jazz anthologies which include his work pick recordings or at least compositions recorded at this session. (I can't even find any reviews that contradict this viewpoint.) So I think it may be helpful to those who want to a place to start. I included one reference, which can be found by googling that book on the web, but I am not so clear on the correct formatting of citations. Perhaps someone can improve this formatting, and maybe even throw in a couple of other citations saying the same thing.

This article could be improved by giving some more attention to "Echoes of Spring," his most famous composition. Sojambi Pinola (talk) 19:03, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Any reason for deleting the information I added in July on his recordings? At the very least, some space should be given to his compositions. The article is lacking. My contributions were not perfect but were at least informative and appropriate. Sojambi Pinola (talk) 19:29, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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Two Blanche Merrills

I removed the part of the sentence that said that Blanche Merrill was a songwriter. I'm currently writing an article on that Blanche Merrill - but there are places that indicate Smith's wife was a different Merrill - who was still playing piano in her 60s. The songwriter Blanche Merrill would have been 20 in 1915 and was still living with her mother until the 1920s. Not the same person. - kosboot (talk) 20:56, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

I've now completed the article on the songwriter Blanche Merrill. Definitely not the same person. - kosboot (talk) 15:10, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Is Smith Ethnically Jewish?

Smith certainly identified as a Jewish man, that's for sure, but was his estranged father actually Jewish? The surname "Bertholf" comes from Dutch origin, certainly not a Jewish surname and tracing Frank Bertholf's family back, it's pretty much a Dutch colonial family with exclusively Christian faith. Maybe Willie Smith identified as Jewish because he grew up in an environment with lots of Jewish neighbors and friends, so he was culturally absorbed. JakeG16777216 (talk) 05:37, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The Lion

Both the article page and talk page was redirected from "The Lion" to "the Lion" citing MOS:THENICKNAME. This page has been long standing for 20 years under this name as "The Lion" since this is how Smith has been referred to in print, media, reviews, album covers, etc for decades. This was not a "nickname" for Smith but a "stage name" that was written as such. Even his autographs reveal a capital "T". I have never seen an album cover or sheet music or the like that read: "the Lion". This move should not have happened. No google search reveals Willie "the Lion" Smith. His correct name / title was and is: Willie "The Lion" Smith. Maineartists (talk) 17:08, 9 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi there. Everything you describe here is covered under MOS:THENICKNAME: A leading "the" is not capitalized in a nickname, pseudonym, or other alias. That is the Wikipedia style. Popcornfud (talk) 17:37, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes. We all know that. Therein lies the problem. First: MOS is a "guideline". Not policy. "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense," Second: If THENICKNAME is the only defense, then you have a lot of editing to do on WP when it comes to musicians; as there are currently numerous articles that use "The" instead of "the". I flipped through at least a dozen before writing this. The tiny little one-line MOS guideline is not effective and does not take into consideration each individual factor and should be either re-written or at the very least allow articles to be edited accordingly for the subject individually. The term "or other alias" is too broad an interpretation for those instituting this. Not one glove fits all here. I see you quickly changed the long-standing "The Boss" over at Bruce Springsteen as well. As a stagename Springsteen is not "the Boss" as in Bruce the "Boss" Springsteen. He is Bruce "The Boss" Springsteen. "The Boss" is the title. He is called as such and written as such. To read: 'The record company signed "the Boss" to a deal' is beyond comprehension and not found in the real world. And neither is Willie "the Lion" Smith. Aretha Franklin was the "Queen of Soul". That I can understand. But the quotes are not around "the"; it is around the title. It would be ridiculous to write: Aretha Franklin, "the Queen of Soul". She's Aretha Franklin, the "Queen of Soul"; and it's Willie "The Lion" Smith. WP:MOS is confusing the two. Recordings: [1], [2], [3], Media: [4], [5], [6], Books: [7], [8], just to present a few. All of these print "The Lion" except WP. Maineartists (talk) 21:45, 11 January 2024 (UTC)

• MOS:THENICKNAME applies. Then we have this search of google books where the often appears in lowercase. We use lowercase. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:43, 15 January 2024 (UTC)

"Often"? The very first search rendered "The". "Music on My Mind" does not reveal "the"; which four of the titles on the search reveal as the same book. Your defense is moot. There are simply far too many more instances of "The" than "the" when referring to Smith throughout history; and when / if "the" is present it is not because it is "correct". The "guideline" is not found anywhere except WP and does not / should not apply in all cases; certainly not apply here. Smith is not Andre the Giant. Maineartists (talk) 12:59, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

[9], [10], [11], [12], [13], [14] and [15] are certainly not the same works. Cinderella157 (talk) 22:32, 16 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, all I can say is: hats off to you for your incredible sleuthing. Well done. And once again, consensus wins the day. The "the"s have it. Maineartists (talk) 14:54, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Lowercase per Cinderella. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:07, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

• Just so we're clear, though: 7 for 7 [16], [17], [18] (same book as Cinderella's), [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], (Obit) [24], [25], [26]. The evidence is just as compelling, if not more. Maineartists (talk) 15:30, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

  Take a look at MOS:CAPS, which says "only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia". That isn't the case for "the Lion / The Lion".

  But as we've already said, we have a guideline that specifically caters for this situation, MOS:THENICKNAME, which unambiguously says we should lowercase "the" here anyway. Popcornfud (talk) 15:43, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

  You know, just because you say something, doesn't make it true; and your defense to look at MOS:CAP has worked for my case since first bringing this to the Talk Page. The majority has weighed in my favor and will continue to do so. His own Memoir uses "The" and NY Times Obit uses "The." For every one "the" I can provide 2 "The". And the fact that this is the case, clearly shows the "guideline" needs revision and updating when it comes to well-known stage names. But as I've already said, as well, MOS:THENICKNAME is a guideline (not policy) and "It is a generally accepted standard that editors should attempt to follow, though it is best treated with common sense." Something most editors like to forget. Maineartists (talk) 19:03, 18 January 2024 (UTC) Maineartists (talk) 19:03, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

  If you look at usage in books, it's way more often lowercase "the" in this context. Dicklyon (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

  I'm old, and I've never read an authoritative source that didn't refer to "The Lion," so it's Wikipedia pedantry versus reality. It's futile to try to contest the very tiny group that controls Wikipedia editing, but if you write about Willie Smith for goodness sakes refer to him as "The Lion". Nicmart (talk) 03:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

  WP:CABAL conspiracy theories are not constructive. It isn't possible for a "tiny group" to "control Wikipedia editing", since WP is edited by over 100,000 individuals in any given month, and there is no "tiny group" with magical mind-control powers. We have guidelines that steer us toward cleanup of unnecessarily capitalization, and you have as much opportunity as anyone else here to propose what those guidelines should say; no "tiny group" can control RfC outcomes. Nor (aside from canvassing particular wikiprojects to vote-stack) can a "tiny group" control the WP:RM process either, so you're welcome to open an RM on the question. That said, taking this to RM might have unintended results. It is not normal for us to put a nickname into the article title at all; only in the ultra-rare cases that the person is almost never referred to without the nickname being inserted mid-name. Sources (including Encyclopaedia Britannica) pretty often refer to him as just "Willie Smith" and give the nickname separately. So, there's a good chance this would move to Willie Smith (pianist).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

I think we can say that this is concluded with consensus for lowercase "the". Dicklyon (talk) 18:46, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Seems consistent with THENICKNAME, and source usage is mixed [27] for this case and similar ones, e.g. [28]. Capitalization is common, but does not meet the "consistently capitalized in independent, reliable sources" standard of MOS:CAPS. If Nicmart or whoever wishes the THENICKNAME guideline provision said the opposite of what it does, or didn't exist, they know how to do an RfC at WT:MOSBIO. However, flipping THENICKNAME to be opposite would be creating a novel exception to the general MOS:CAPS rule, and one that is hard to justify with inconsistent source usage (i.e., other publishers simply treat this as a style matter subject to their own house-style rules, not as a proper-name construction that must be capitalized like The Hague), so the odds of such an RfC being successful seem very low to me.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  21:46, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Origin of nickname

I've just read an account from Willie "The Lion" Smith in Nat Hentoff's 1955 book Hear me Talking To Ya that gives a source for his nickname:

"I wanted to become a rabbi. I got as far as becoming a cantor. Because of my devotion to Judaism, I was called "The Lion of Judea," later abbreviated to 'The Lion.'" Page 176

Could this be a possible inclusion in the article?? Iheartkeays (talk) 21:46, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

I should also add that the current account on the page is also corroborated in the second next paragraph in the book:

"During the first war, I was one of the few to volunteer to go to the front and fire a French seventy-five—and of those who did, few returned. I stayed at the front for fifty-one days without relief. I was known from that time on as Sergeant William H. Smith, "The Lion." Iheartkeays (talk) 21:55, 5 February 2024 (UTC)