Talk:Willie Mays/GA1

GA Review

Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch

Reviewer: Wasted Time R (talk · contribs) 18:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I have begun reviewing this article. Given its length and prominence, it may take a little while ... Wasted Time R (talk) 18:35, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

---

Solid article, but some areas for improvement

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   Lede too long, some scattered prose issues, some MoS issues, see below

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism):

   Some MoS issues with the references, see below

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Some additional points could be covered and a new section added, see below

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Inconsistent captions, see below

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Regarding the lede:

At six paragraphs and 4986 characters (919 words) readable prose size, it is too long. You could fit three minimum-size DYK articles within it, for instance.

Things that in my view can be omitted from the lede:

• Mays was raised by his father, Cat, who played baseball in the Birmingham Industrial League. The younger
• after getting only one hit in his first 25 at bats,
• over the offseason
• but losing out to Richie Ashburn on the final day of the season
• Bothered by the flu in 1967, Mays batted .263 with 22 home runs. He batted .289 in 1968 but was moved to the leadoff position in the lineup in 1969 because he was not hitting as many home runs. – the lede doesn't need detail about his decline
• n 1971, he reached the playoffs for the first time in nine years as the Giants won the NL West but were eliminated by the Pittsburgh Pirates in the NL Championship Series.
• Mays received a standing ovation on his return to New York. The oldest position player in the NL by that year, he spent the rest of 1972 and 1973 with the Mets,
• (tied with Stan Musial, behind Hank Aaron's 25)
• and most extra-inning home runs (22)
• that year by commissioner Bowie Kuhn after accepting a job with a casino, even though the position did not involve Mays actually participating in gambling. The ban lasted six years, before new commissioner Peter Ueberroth lifted it in 1985. – can be condensed to "was banned from baseball for six years for accepting a job as a greeter at a casino".
• , and the team re-hired him in 1986. In 1993, Mays signed a lifetime contract with the Giants
• "If somebody came up and hit .450, stole 100 bases and performed a miracle in the field every day, I’d still look you in the eye and say Willie was better," manager Leo Durocher said of him.

After this material is removed, the lede could be smoothed and shortened to five paragraphs, which is still one more than the usual limit.

• I figured you'd want the lead shortened (I'm pretty sure I wrote it before you reviewed the Maglie article)! Made most of the changes, but I would like to leave the Durocher quote in. It's one example of the many things Mays's peers and contemporaries had to say about him, and it makes a nice conclusion to the lead. The Baseball Hall of Fame found it notable enough to mention it in their six-paragraph biography of Mays. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 23:20, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

Also:

one of the most famous plays of all-time in the lede should be linked to The Catch (baseball) (you do link it in the article body)

"List of the 100 Greatest Baseball Players," – comma goes outside closing quote

Re Early life section:

I really like this material, especially the mysteries that are hard to unscramble now.

, leading players at Jefferson County all-black high schools in scoring. – this doesn't read quite right to me, try to rephrase.

Re Negro leagues and Minor leagues sections:

he played briefly with the Chattanooga Choo-Choos – you should indicate that this was a Negro minor league

His father had played baseball on an industrial league team – already stated in previous section, can be referred back to more succinctly

and inquired of Black Barons owner Tom Hayes about signing him. Hayes wanted $7,500 down and another $7,500 if the Braves kept Mays for at least a year, – An MLB team would have to buy Mays' contract from the Negro League team? I thought by this time, post-Jackie Robinson, that the majors were raiding talent from the Negro Leagues with no compensation. When the Giants did sign Mays, did they pay the Black Barons anything?

Batting .477 – there's a great quote you can use to prevent people from thinking this is a typo, from Leonard Koppett's highly-praised book A Thinking Man's Guide to Baseball (New York: E. P. Dutton & Co., 1967), p. 226: "By May 24, Willie was hitting .477. Not .377. .477." But Koppett pp. 226–227 also makes the point that the Giants brought up Mays for his fielding as much as for his hitting, because centerfield in the Polo Grounds was absolutely huge, the largest in the majors. That needs to be mentioned in the article.

Durocher called him back – if it was Heath calling Durocher on behalf of Mays, did Durocher call back Heath or did he call Mays directly?

Newspapers.com has the Minneapolis Morning Tribute, and you can see from May 25 here that Mays' call-up was page one news. The newspaper even had an editorial saying they were sad to see him go but wishing him well.

The above newspaper story makes the good point that Mays only had 3½ months of total organized (non-Negro Leagues) baseball experience at this point, which may explain his trepidation at going to the majors. That 3½ months figure is worth mentioning in the article, since the casual reader may think he had the better part of two years in the minors, when in fact it was much less.

TODO find Newspapers.com that has the four-column Stoneham ad

• I don't have a newspapers.com subscription, but the source I have citing to the ad is perfectly appropriate. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 03:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Re Major leagues sections:

Some of the section headers under "Major leagues" use endashes for the year ranges but some use hyphens. They should all be endashes.

Somewhere it's worth noting that he had 12 consecutive years scoring 100 runs or more.

saying in his 1988 autobiography it was like "O. J. Simpson blocking for the fullback." – I'd leave this out, since a) readers in countries like Japan and Korea that know baseball but not American football won't get it; b) younger readers in America may not know what a fullback is, since so few teams use them now; and c) some readers may not realize that Mays said this pre-murders.

• I get what you're saying, and I'd be more inclined to take it out if anyone else had said it – however, this assertion was made by Mays himself, which ties it more strongly to the subject matter of the article. Simpson and fullback are linked, so readers in countries like Japan and Korea (or in some of the many countries where neither baseball nor American football are popular) can enlighten themselves as to what it means. I don't see how it matters whether Mays said this before or after the alleged murders; the criminal allegations have nothing to do with Simpson's athletic prowess. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 03:17, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

He said of the feat, "Winning the game was more important to me than any individual achievements." – I'd leave this out. It's the kind of quote that athletes deliver by rote to reporters to demonstrate they are team-focused. In fact, top athletes all have big egos and they care a lot about individual accomplishments. (Early Wynn held on and on to his chance to get to 300 wins, just to pick one example from Mays' era. Denny McLain really cared about getting to 30 wins and after that was able to help Mickey Mantle, who really cared about getting ahead of Jimmie Foxx on the career homers list. And so on.)

• That's a bad excuse. The sentence you want me to remove literally says, "He said of the feat, 'Winning the game was more important to me than any individual achievements.'" It doesn't say the quote was true or not; that's for the reader to decide. I'm not removing it. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 03:17, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Having read the whole article now, you've got three instances of this – not just this one, but also "I don't feel excitement about this now," he told reporters after the game. "The main thing I wanted to do was help Gaylord Perry win a game." and Throughout his career, Mays maintained that he did not specifically try to set records, This is undue weight for something that is unlikely to be true, and in fact is contradicted in the article by his a) ego being bruised by moved to the leadoff spot on a regular basis; b) but not complaining when he was batted leadoff at the end of a season to try to win a batting title; and c) avoiding Gibson and Seaver because he didn't want his stats to go down. This is not a knock on Mays. The better the athlete the bigger the ego, and there is nothing wrong with wanting both for your team to win and for you to reach career heights. LeBron James cares passionately about winning championships, but I'm sure he also really wants to retire as the NBA leader career scorer, even if he doesn't say so. Mosts of the time these goals are not mutually exclusive; the Lakers will benefit by LeBron playing superior basketball as long as he can, just as the Giants benefited from Mays playing at a high enough level to get to 3,000 hits and 600 homers. But this game where players pretend they don't care about career marks when talking to the press does not merit being represented in three separate places in this article. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:24, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

So? I have three instances of this over a 22-season career. That's hardly undue weight. All the quotes are cited; it is indisputable that they were said. Your so-called contradictions themselves are debatable - Mays may not have played against Gibson and Seaver because he disliked facing them (not necessarily for statistical reasons), and his reluctance to bat leadoff may have just been dissatisfaction with the role (he was more used to trying to drive runners in, not trying to reach base and be driven in). Whether stock should be put in them or not is something for the reader to decide. Hirsch (a better writer than either of us) saw fit to include this information in his biography of Mays. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 18:44, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

He later fell down in the outfield during a play where he was hindered by the glare of the sun and by the hard outfield, an error ... – Fairly or not, this play is often referred to as a canonical example of the sad fate of an athlete still trying to play when they've lost the abilities that once made them great. See this look back on the game or this discussion for just two examples. The article should at least briefly mention this aspect.

ECDHE-RSA-AES128-SHA

Re creation of a "Player profile" section:

I think this article would benefit from a "Player profile" section, like Mickey Mantle and Michael Jordan and a few others have. This could describe what he was like to watch as a player overall, something that is hard to convey in the year-by-year narrative of the preceding sections.

It could describe his batting style – what kind of stance did he have, what kind of swing, what fields did he hit to, etc. Was he a patient hitter or did he swing away early in the count? I've read that the former Negro Leagues players tended to focus on hitting aggressively rather than getting walks, because otherwise they would never get noticed, and thus they now tend to suffer in sabermetric comparisons with players like Ruth, Williams, and Mantle who walked a lot. I can't find the source for that at the moment, but you can see something equivalent about early Latin players in this piece: "No one walks off the island."

• Well, Mays certainly doesn't fall into that category, as he once led the league in walks and is one of the top players sabermetrically. I can't find anything indicating whether he was primarily an early or late count hitter, so I'd assume he was liable to swing at any point in it. As such, I didn't bother to mention that specifically. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 03:21, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

It could describe his fielding style. The basket catch is mentioned in a couple of places in the article, but it could use a little more description given it was a Mays signature. Koppett pp 226–227 has a great quote about his abilities in centerfield: "His range was limitless, and his arm so strong that he could make effective throws from the most unlikely locations and from the most unlikely body positions." That range allowed him to play a shallow center and prevent shallow singles, while still get back and not let extra-base hits get over his head. Something should also be said about how Mays read opposing batters and that allowed him to get a great jump on the ball (I think the Hirsch book has something on this).

And his baserunning needs to be described. More than just stolen bases, he was known for aggressive opportunistic feats such as scoring from first on single or from second on groundout. Some discussions of this include here and here and here.

In general, the section should convey that Mays was an exciting player, moreso than, say, Aaron who was more of the steady excellence type - see for example this NYT story comparing them.

• Yeah, that's a great idea! Might take me some time to get it done, but I will work on it! Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 03:28, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Re the "Legacy" section:

the pre-performance-enhancing drugs era - this could all be over a more specific link to Doping in baseball

and many surveys and expert analyses, which have examined Mays' relative performance, have led to a growing opinion that Mays was possibly the greatest all-around offensive baseball player of all time.*[240][241][242][243][244] – Do these sources really limit this to 'offensive'? That seems unlikely, since Mays had so much value defensively. Limiting to offense only would hurt Mays in comparison to Ruth and Ted Williams for instance. Or is this use of 'offensive' intended to mean just non-pitchers? In that case, the use is not clear – should be replaced by 'position player'.

In any case, statements like this need more explication - who is saying them and based on what observations, metrics, methods of analysis, etc?

• Just removed it entirely; it was left over from before I started working on the article. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 21:18, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

David Schoenfield of ESPN examines the sabermetric statistic runs created, – The article needs to talk about the sabermetric evaluation of Mays more than it does. And at this point Runs Created is a pretty old saber tool to be using. How does Mays look in terms of WAR? (156.2 career per B-R, 5th all-time, 3rd among position players, six seasons above 10.0, two seasons at or above 11.0). What about OPS? (.941 career, five times over 1.000, five times leading the league).

For slightly older metrics, the The New Bill James Historical Baseball Abstract (New York: Free Press, 2003) is a good source. On page 720, he rates Mays as the best centerfielder of all time. He also says that he should have won the MVP seven times (another voice to what the article already says about that). And on pages 234 and 266 he names Mays the best centerfielder in the majors for the decade of the 1950s and the decade of the 1960s.

The article needs a mention of the Mays versus Mantle comparison, which went on their entire careers and was inevitable given they were huge stars who came up in the same year and played the same position for different teams in New York. The Koppett book devotes a whole chapter to this, pp. 222–235. There's a several-page analysis of who was better in the first Bill James Historical Abstract. And I haven't read it, but it sounds like it's a focus of the Barra book.

• Mentioned that, along with Snider, the third of the New York centerfielders inducted into the Hall of Fame. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 19:53, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Something should be said about Mays and the civil rights movement. From a review of the Hirsch book I saw, it sounds like Mays was less than vocal, saying about bigots "There wasn't much you could do except ignore them and play the games." His upbringing in the South may have had a lot to do with this, but there may be more to Mays' role than I've seen.

Mays was had a top salary for this time, but of course ballplayers earn much more now, and Mays is one of those special past players that people love to speculate regarding how much money they'd earn now. Examples are here and here and here but I'm sure there are others. In particular I remember a TV commercial from the 1990s (?) where some guys in a bar are talking about the subject and Mays asks them how much he'd make if he was playing today and one of the guys tells him, "Willie, banks don't hold enough money to pay you." Or something like that, but unfortunately I can't find the commercial on YouTube.

• Right, but I don't think this needs to be in the article. It would be purely speculation, and any reader can infer that if Mays was one of the top money-earners in the era he played in, he'd be one of the top money-earners today. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 21:22, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

Amphetamines allegations – The content belongs, but I don't think having a section header for it is warranted. It gives it undue weight in the Table of Contents, given how little material there is in the article about it and given how there is no real proof of the allegations. Just leave it as a paragraph in the section it's in.

• Makes sense. That section header was left over from someone else's edits; I have removed it. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 22:21, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Re the later text sections:

On the Job Corps tour of 1965, in my view this could be shortened and moved to follow the Sudden collapses plagued Mays sporadically throughout his career ... discussion, as an example that these collapses happened in the off-season too. I would get rid of the quote from HHH, which is boilerplate – in reality, kids usually don't listen to athletes, and athletes are often bad role models anyway.

on episode 4.46 of the Colgate Comedy Hour – what does this mean? 46th episode of the fourth season? If so, should be simplified to "on a fourth-season episode" or even simpler "on an episode".

Mays walks with President Bush, – should say "President George W. Bush"

Harlem River Drive – should be linked

Re images:

TODO I need to get back to checking these

One image I can think to add is that of File:Willie Mays Plaza.jpg.

Mays on September 28, 2008 – where is this and what is the event?

Linking in the captions is inconsistent – compare the two in the Special honors and tributes section for example. Personally I think links in captions are visually distracting, but the MoS usually encourages them.

• Removed most of the links because they are also mentioned in the article. The only links I didn't remove are when the thing linked is the first mention in the article. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 03:18, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Some MoS issues in References/Notes/Bibliography:

Strictly speaking, any page ranges in the citations should use endashes, but they all appear to use hyphens.

And the citations should be consistent about whether the use all the digits of the ending page or not, i.e. Mays, pp. 213–14 or Mays, pp. 222–223 but not both.

More importantly, the 'Mays' short form citations such as Mays, p. 246 are ambiguous, since there are two different Mays volumes listed in the Bibliography. They should be changed, e.g. to "Mays and Sahadi, p. 246". This is also good because it indicates that Mays had a co-author, which makes this source somewhat more trustworthy (athlete autobiographies are always somewhat suspect). I see that you have a Note 'a' that tries to get around this, but it's too easily missed (I did initially) and short form should also include co-authors

The Hano entry has a "Check |lccn= value" flag on it.

• I know, but that's the lccn value that's listed - must be a problem with the template. I'd put the ISBN, but it doesn't seem to have one (or if it does, I missed it). Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 03:18, 13 October 2020 (UTC)

Anyway, I got bogged down on this review for various reasons, and there's more I intend to comment on, but these are most of the major items. So I want to get this out here for now so that you can get started on responses and changes. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:02, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

I continue to get sidetracked on this, but I'm trying to focus on it now. I want to complete my first-pass comments, then I'll start responding to your reactions above and the changes you've made. So here are my comments on the New York Giants sections:

and recording no hits in four at bats. – this is unnecessary given the next sentence.

• Actually, it's not, because it summarizes specifically how Mays did in his first game. The next sentence proves he didn't have a hit, but four at bats indicates he played the whole game. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 19:57, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

were among the lowest of his career, – would read better as "would be among the ...", since the rest of his career hasn't happened yet at this point in the narrative.

Mays was in the on-deck circle ... – Koppett p 227 says that Mays was "admittedly scared" that he would have to come up ... wonder if there's a Mays quote from after the game that this is based on? Would be good to include.

• I don't remember if there was one or not, but I think to add one now would be to make the 1951 section too long. It's already quite a bit longer than the sections about some of Mays's other seasons. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 20:00, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

but he did hit a memorable fly ball – I think 'memorable' isn't quite the right word here - maybe 'consequential'?

was slated to report to Camp Kilmer – add New Jersey as the location of the camp, since you give the state for the other camp.

where he spent much of his time playing on military baseball teams with other major leaguers – This needs a little background as to the military's policy back then. Were all drafted major league players given this assignment (other than well-known exceptions like Ted Williams)? It seems kind of pointless, why draft a baseball player if all they are going to do in the service is play baseball? In any case, it needs to be made clear whether Mays got special treatment or whether this was standard operating procedure.

April 13, 1954, was the first time Mays was in the Giants' lineup on Opening Day; - this fact doesn't seem that important, but if it is, need to explain why he wasn't in the opening day lineup in 1952.

• Actually a mistake...he was in the Opening Day lineup in 1952, so I corrected. Thanks for noticing! Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 12:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

The next time the franchise won was 56 years later when the San Francisco Giants won the World Series in 2010. – This is pretty verbose for something that has no connection to Mays. It would be more succinct just to add a parenthetical "(and its last anywhere for 56 years)" to the previous sentence.

• Decided to just take it out entirely - after all, Mays had nothing to do with the franchise's performance after 1972. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 12:40, 20 October 2020 (UTC)

but got into a confrontation with Rubén Gómez – I'm not getting what the point of this story is. Gómez was Mays's teammate on the Giants and Ralat was a struggling minor league pitcher and both were Puerto Rican. At first I thought the point was that Gómez and Ralat thought Mays was being disrespectful of them, but in that case, why did Ralat refuse to pitch to Gómez when Gómez jumped the order? And weren't they using the batting practice screens that keep the pitchers from being hit by comebackers?

• There's no point to the story; it's merely a notable event in Mays's life that deserves mention. I don't think they were using the batting practice screens; at any rate, the story didn't mention it. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 21:18, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

"But Mr. Leo, it's going to be different with you gone. You won't be here to help me," – There needs to be some more context about the Durocher-Mays relationship, because otherwise this sounds like a line of dialogue from Gone with the Wind. Indeed, as Hirsch page 246 says, there have been critics who thought that "Durocher invoked troubling stereotypes of Mays as a helpless farmhand at the mercy of a benevolent plantation owner." It's more complicated than that, as the Hirsch discussion of this says, but I think the article needs to try to discuss in a sentence or two the effect that Durocher had on Mays' career.

stole third, and scored the winning run on a single, - Scoring from third on a single is easy, and if it was an infield grounder where they tried to get Mays at the plate it would usually be scored a fielder's choice for the batter. This needs clarification.

• Changed the wording slightly. The point is that all the plays were close enough, Mays had to slide. He definitely scored from third on the single. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 21:18, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

move the Giants to San Francisco - what were Mays's feelings about the move, if any?

• I don't think he said much about the move. Probably the biggest impact is that the San Francisco fans took a while to warm to Mays and occasionally booed him until 1962, but that is covered in the article. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 21:20, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I've also made some minor corrections to the article directly, hoping they are unobjectionable. Wasted Time R (talk) 12:29, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

Comments on the rest of the Major Leagues sections:

but a sweep by the Dodgers began a stretch of six losses in those final games, dooming them to fourth. - did Mays play especially well or especially poorly during this stretch? Otherwise this description of their faltering could be moved to the 1959 San Francisco Giants season, which for some reason has nothing about their regular season other than Willie McCovey becoming rookie of the year.

tricky to field - repeat of 'tricky' from previous sentence

When a ball was hit, he would count to five before he even started running after it, - I presume this was only high fly balls, not line drives? Needs clarification.

and won 85 games - might be better to give their 85-69 record here, since to anyone not aware of the 154-game season, 85 wins is only a little above .500.

Mays endured booing from the fans through the 1961 season. Barra speculates that this may have been due to San Francisco fans comparing Mays unfavorably to the most famous center fielder ever to come from San Francisco, Joe DiMaggio. – First, this needs a wording clarification that he had been booed since his arrival in 1958 and that it stopped in 1961. Second, that he was booed at all needs more discussion, because it's kind of shocking. This January 11, 1959 Honolulu Advertiser has a column by Milton Richman of the UPI which states that Mays "was booed on occasion" in San Francisco during his first season there, but that Mays maintains that it didn't bother him. Then this June 23, 1961 Alabama Tribune has a UPI story by Hal Wood - that a lot of papers ran - saying that Mays "was booed unmercifully his first three seasons in San Francisco" but now finally the fans liked him and he "hasn't heard the whisper of a boo at Candlestick Park for months". And in this story, Mays admits that it did bother him. This story says that the booing was a puzzle that even Freud would have trouble figuring out, but offers three theories for the it: "There is the belief that some fans booed him because New Yorkers had built him up as a super-man. Others booed because they thought, for $80,000 a year, he should hit a home run every time he came to the plate. Still others gave him the Bronx cheer because Willie stayed pretty much to himself." The story goes on to say that Mays was now staying in SF for the winter, instead of coming back to NY, and that he was getting more involved in the SF community. Then at the end it mentions the DiMaggio theory. So I think this WP article needs to include these other theories as well, because DiMaggio's last season for the San Francisco Seals was 1935, that's a whole generation before Mays got there. There has to have been more to it than that.

• Made changes. Explanations 1) and 2) in the Wood article are really only one explanation – the fans expected Mays to be an even better player than he really was. Also, the Barra book indicates the booing might have lasted into 1962, so I'm going to leave the last sentence the way it is. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 19:53, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

during a 14-minute brawl - the article should make a little more clear that this was one of the most violent on-field incidents in baseball history. (As an aside, there really could be a separate article about it; right now there are long, partly duplicative accounts at both John Roseboro#Marichal incident and Juan Marichal#Roseboro incident.)

"I started thinking home run every time I got up," Mays explained his slump. - he said then, after breaking the homerless streak, or years later?

(though the Giants won the game 4–3) - since Mays didn't contribute to the win, this parenthetical isn't necessary.

• I strongly disagree. It's important to note that the Giants scored four runs that game; this shows that the strikeouts weren't merely the result of an unhittable pitcher that night. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 20:02, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

{xt|"After I got back into the lineup, I never felt strong again for the rest of the season," he said.}} - the phrase 'he said' connotes saying this right after the season. If this is from a memoir, 'he recollected' is better.

at the end of the decade, - less repetitious if you just say "by that time".

, as this meant that Mays was willing to allow himself to be called out instead of trying to get a hit in that situation - unnecessary - the name 'sacrifice bunt' gets the idea across even to those who don't know baseball well.

Mays stated that they promised to pay him $50,000 a year for 10 years after he retired - Mays stated at time, or claimed years later? If it was only a verbal promise ...

• Hirsch isn't clear: his exact words are "Mays said the Mets also agreed to pay him, on his retirement, $50,000 a year for ten years," with no further elaboration as to whether they actually did or not or not. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 20:10, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I later saw that the Oct 30 1979 Rome News-Tribune source you have states it as a fact - he was getting $50K a year from the Mets in a deal that still had two years to go, which fits reasonably well. But Bally's offered him twice as much to be a greeter, so off he went. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:24, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

Changed wording to state as fact, and cited with Rome News-Tribune article. Thanks for catching that! Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 18:47, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

to guarantee a trip to the playoffs - unnecessary - in every sport I know of, if you win a division or a conference, you get into the post-season.

Leading off Game 1 - the 'Game 1' repeats what you just said before this.

taking the game seriously in his desire to support his teammates and the National League - yes, he did take the game seriously, but so did many other players - the article should indicate for the benefit of younger readers that the All-Star Game was a big deal back then, much more than it is now, and so Mays' great play in the games helped contribute to his legend.

• That seems to have more to do with the article on the All-Star game than the article on Mays himself. I'm not really sure how I'd go about incorporating this. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 21:09, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Teams of star players would travel from city to city playing exhibition games - were all the barnstorming tours comprised of black players only? It isn't clear.

• Mays's were, but I'm not sure whether all barnstorming teams were like that, so I'd refrain from making any stronger statements than what is already said. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 21:11, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

From 1955 through '58 - per MoS the "1958" has to be written out.

playing an exhibition season - how many games were in this 'season'?

That's it for now, will continue with the rest ... Wasted Time R (talk) 00:43, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Finishing the first-pass comments:

Schoenfield writes, noting that Mays won 12 Gold Glove Awards - if this is the sabermetrics-oriented paragraph, Gold Gloves should not be mentioned, since they were long notorious for being based on reputation as much as anything else. And the 12 Gold Gloves are mentioned in at least two other places already.

During baseball season, Mays would play the game two to three nights a week. - This would have to say during homestands ... even so it seems like a bit of an exaggeration that he played that often. Was he playing after day games, or before night games? In fact, the figure isn't from Barra, but from Barra quoting a Time magazine story at the time. I think this should be in-text attributed to the Time story.

and allowed him to report late to spring training the year his third child was born. - unclear - Mays was not in a position of authority to allow anyone to report late.

• You're forgetting he was the captain. It's Hirsch's claim, I wouldn't dispute it. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 18:50, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

In 1999, Mays placed second on The Sporting News's "List of the 100 Greatest Baseball Players", second only to Babe Ruth.[298] Later that year, he was also elected by fans to the Major League Baseball All-Century Team.[299] - I think it would be better to move these two sentences into the Legacy section. They are measures of his greatness as a player, which is what the Legacy section deals with, rather than overall honors for his life and career, which is what this section deals with.

African-American Ethnic Sports Hall of Fame - I think this should be red linked, to inspire someone to create an article about it.

• I try to avoid redlinks on articles; I don't think they look nice. However, if you want to redlink it, go ahead - I don't have any objections. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 18:53, 22 October 2020 (UTC)

his second studio album - just say his second album, which is what people would have said at the time. "Nth studio album" is Wikipediaese.

from the album Pieces of a Man. - unnecessary - the song is better known than the album.

in "Centerfield," - This gets badly lost in the middle of a long paragraph. What needs to be mentioned is that this song became a hit, has been widely played on classic rock type stations, and is one of those songs that is played all the time in stadiums during games. Of all the songs listed here, it's by far the most heard today, and its lyric "So say hey, Willie" helps keep Mays in the contemporary popular mind. What's more, the song has been incorporated into the Baseball Hall of Fame, and in 2010 Fogerty went to Cooperstown and performed it, and Mays was there to hear it. There are lots of sources on this, including this and this and this and this. I would be tempted to give this an entire paragraph, after all the other songs were mentioned. Or at least move it to the end of the paragraph it's in, so that it stands out more.

Now that the first run through of comments is done, I'll start going over your responses and changes. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:29, 21 October 2020 (UTC)

Forgot to finish checking the images for rights. Most are okay but I have my doubts about the assertions in Commons that the 1961 Giants, later years with Giants, and 1972 Mets ones really had no copyright notice. But I know from the Maglie review that you consider that if they have stayed on Commons they are okay to use. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:21, 23 October 2020 (UTC)

This review already has 4,500 words in it and I think we've reached the point of diminishing returns. I disagree with many of the content points above, some that we have gone back-and-forth on and some that we haven't, but it's clear I'm not going to convince you off what you have in the article. That's okay, you did the hard work to put this together so you get to have your vision of Mays' career put forward. And regardless of what I think, this is a good article, even readers who watched Mays play will learn something from it and younger readers will hopefully learn a lot. So I am passing it for GA. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:41, 23 October 2020 (UTC)