Talk:Winged football helmet

Winged Helmet

This article really needs a picture. I'll see if I have a free use pic at home but I doubt it. Dachande 13:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

I have a replica, so I guess I will upload a picture of it. Happy New Year!! Malinaccier (talk) 00:34, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Some of this information is incorrect. Crisler did not initiate the helmet at Princeton; he used a Spalding FH5 helmet which had wings for construction purposes, and that helmet was used by many schools. At Michigan in 1938, Crisler innovated by painting the helmet maize and blue. More details are available through the University of Michigan's Bentley Library.

Ridiculous article

What a stupid idea for an article. Gee, maybe we should have an article on helmets with a stripe down the middle or helmets with single letter logos, only we'll call them Single striped helmet and Letter logoed helmet, so they sound important.

I came here from the link over at Michigan Wolverines football, where, for god's sake, this is mentioned in the lead paragraph as one of the things that Michigan football is known for. What a joke. 98.82.196.213 (talk) 23:27, 5 September 2010 (UTC)

• • • Well, its one of the most identifiable symbols in sports. We'll all just have to live with your disgust that there is a Wikipedia page for it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.75.125.136 (talk) 17:52, 17 December 2010 (UTC)

"Well, its one of the most identifiable symbols in sports."

We're laughing at you, and not just over punctuation:

https://deepblue.lib.umich.edu/bitstream/handle/2027.42/91933/culture_change_blindness.pdf

'Like water to a fish'... a fish never questions the nature of water, because why would it? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.234.43.155 (talk) 17:52, 18 July 2017 (UTC)

Valid sources and Michigan State

There's a discussion on several other pages about what would be a valid source. Imacericg suggested the following

• A) Constantine S. Demos and Steven S. Demos, M.D., The Tradition Continues: Spartan Football (Muskegon: Michigan State University Football Players Association, 2008) 515.
• B) Michigan State Football: They Are Spartans (Arcadia Publishing (January 11, 2004)
• C) Bentley Historical Library: University of Michigan Athletics History. “University of Michigan Football: Michigan’s Winged Helmet.” The Regents of the University of Michigan. Apr. 2006, 26 Mar. 2010
• D) http://www.uniwatchblog.com/2010/12/29/winging-it-helmet-history-reconsidered/
• E) http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2/story?page=lukas/110113_bulwark_football_helmets
• F) MSU Archives: http://www.flickr.com/photos/msuarchives/4524022374/in/set-72157623632171779/

Spartanjerseys.com was also discussed, but I think it's agreed that it is clearly not an RS. Of course, we can use the criteria in Wikipedia's Reliable Sources guideline to evaluate them, which can be summarized, Articles should be based on reliable, third-party, published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. Also, there are a few other issues involved NPOV, etc.

I guess the first question is, where do any of these sources state that Michigan State used a Winged helmet in 1933? None have been cited in the article, as far as I know.

Also, I don't think A, B, or D meet the RS standard. C may, E maybe, and F might if it's actually the product of a scholarly institution, not someone's personal photo stream. (why is it on Flickr and not at msu.edu)?

guanxi (talk) 23:22, 18 February 2011 (UTC)

I've tried to help, but my patience and time are exhausted. It's up to Imacericg to understand WP:RS and other guidelines, and to show that these are 1) reliable sources that 2) support the material he/she wants to cite to them. D is a blog, E cites D, and F is someone's Flickr photo to which Imacericg him/herself posts that it was taken in 1940. And in that post to F Imacericg says he/she is the author of spartanjerseys.com! This is wasting my time. guanxi (talk) 00:01, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

My latest line that was just removed did not mention "Michigan State used a Winged helmet in 1933". My input to this article never made that claim.

I believe they are all reliable sources (A-F). I will concede Spartan Jerseys as not a RS as everything on SpartanJerseys is from A-F. If we do settle on removing Spartan Jerseys from the External Links, we also need to remove the link to Bentley Historical Library.

What do you think? Imacericg (talk) 00:06, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I think you need to read and understand WP:RS before you continue to edit the article or expect someone to spend their time discussing it with you.

Source [D] interviews an Eric G. who claims to be the creator of spartanjerseys.com. Based on your username and the fact that you claim elsewhere to have written part of spartanjerseys.com (see my previous comment), I think we can safely guess that you are Eric G. In the interview, you say,

... I haven’t had the budget to broadcast it as loudly as it deserves. My intention is to set the record straight. We constantly see the winged helmets on the field in Ann Arbor. Being a diehard MSU fan, I wanted to create a page explaining the facts and the history behind the winged helmet, proving that MSU was wearing that style before our friends in Ann Arbor.

It's not appropriate to use Wikipedia for your personal crusade, to spread links to your personal website (that Spam), or to edit articles to push you POV. I think you should stop editing this page at this point. guanxi (talk) 00:17, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

There is confusion between a Website (Spartan Jerseys) and the reliable sources that we are discussing in this talk section. I agree that the website uses the sources above, but what the matter at hand is, why can't the information from the sources be included in this article? For example, this line was just removed by Guanxi:

"The winged helmet debuted in 1934, with Michigan State College football wearing a gold helmet with black wings" and was cited: Michigan State Football: They Are Spartans (Arcadia Publishing (January 11, 2004)) 31

The above line has nothing to do with the above accusations and everything to do with the article: Winged Helmets. Last I checked, published books, found in libraries are reliable.

Lets get back on track here Imacericg (talk) 00:33, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not rehashing the discussion. Enough. guanxi (talk) 00:38, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

As user Guanxi has decided to end discussion on this topic, I am going to revert my last update of the line "The winged helmet debuted in 1934, with Michigan State College football wearing a gold helmet with black wings" as cited in a published book with no connection to Spartan Jerseys. Imacericg (talk) 01:20, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not ending it, I'm simply not playing your game and repeating it. If you want to address what I said above (and I'm not going to repeat it, I'm sure you an read), then I'll respond. guanxi (talk) 21:15, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Added Michigan State back to the article citing Bentley Historical Library, which is cited on this article four times. If this gets removed for not being a reliable source, please also remove all mention to University of Michigan and Fritz Crisler. Imacericg (talk) 22:24, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Great, an RS! It doesn't say M. State used it before Princeton, it just says, Michigan State had adopted its version of a "winged helmet" several years earlier. Earlier than what? At that point the article is talking about U. of Mich so that's all we know they are referring to. Also, I integrated it with the history; the whole history does not belong in the Intro. guanxi (talk) 06:05, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

We are making good progress. I removed more design history from the introduction down to the design history section. So now the introduction is simply what the helmet is, and the Design History is the history. Actually, I am going to rename "Design History" to "History". Sound good? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imacericg (talk • contribs) 16:39, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

It's not good. Your publicly avowed intent is to promote Michigan State over the University of Michigan by spreading your version of the history of the helmet. It's reasonable to assume that's why you made that change. Please stop editing this article; Wikipedia is not a platform for your crusade. Feel free to edit the millions of unrelated Wikipedia articles. The reason for the helmet's notability, which is its use by U. of Mich, belongs in the intro. guanxi (talk) 17:11, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Hey, I think we actually have something that works! Your last edit was fine with me. I still hope you will read WP:RS, because it will save you and many others a lot of time -- 'Reliable Source' has a specific meaning on Wikipedia, and it's not what you think. Also, please reconsider editing this page, in which you have such a strong and documented POV. There's a guideline on that too, but I don't have time to find it! guanxi (talk) 20:42, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Excellent, glad we came to a compromise on the first paragraph. Imacericg (talk) 20:55, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

MSU "claim" to winged helmet

I just removed a sentence in the article describing the "disputed history" of the winged helmet which cited to a posting at spartanjerseys.com as support for a Michigan State "claim" to have invented the helmet. The spartanjerseys.com article didn't really say that (though its headline did), but instead just offered up a few photos of helmets with sort-of wings that were said to predate Crisler's 1935 invention. (In fact the posting seemed to credit Ohio State, not MSU, with the first use of the helmet.) While there are plain similarities to the modern Princeton / Michigan helmets, they are also quite different and the argument that these earlier versions in fact represent the "invention" of the thing is really kind of metaphysical. In short, the cited posting does not say what this article says it does, and in any case, spartanjerseys.com is not a reliable source. I left in the remainder of the text that cites to the ESPN history, despite lacking access to that material, because I am not in a position to verify or dispute it. If someone can come up with a reliable source that describes an actual dispute over the helmet's history, or an actual claim by MSU or OSU or any other school to have invented the helmet, the material should be re-entered. I wasn't able after a brief round with Google to find anything. JohnInDC (talk) 14:37, 19 April 2012 (UTC)

I know it's just a trading card

But did Yale have what looked like a winged helmet long before the others? See here. Cake (talk) 01:23, 30 April 2015 (UTC)