Talk:Without You (Badfinger song)

Inspiration

What was the occasion that inspired the lyrics, the article is a bit confusing right now. Pete/Pcb21 (talk) 09:46, 16 Mar 2004 (UTC)

Yes, I'm curious to know this too. --Johnleemk 15:41, 15 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'm afraid I've come along LONG after your query, but I added reference to Matovina's Badfinger biography regarding lyric origination. In a nutshell, Pete Ham wrote the verse after leaving his girlfriend for a studio session. She told him it was OK, but "in her eyes her sorrow showed." -- ZincOrbie 23:20, 8 February 2006 (UTC)

Mariah focus

I'm a bit confused: Why does Mariah Carey and no one else deserve an image-let alone the bulk of this article, when her release is not quite as important as Nilsson's, nor did she write the song? It doesn't seem balanced.J. M. 06:14, 25 May 2006 (UTC)

I agree, but at least the Carey version no longer has its own article. Also, I've removed the single infobox for Carey's version as the article isn't big enough for more than one infobox and it introduces POV issues. Extraordinary Machine 21:43, 31 July 2006 (UTC)

Without You still her only solo UK no.1

The article claims it is her only UK no.1 as of 2006, this may create the impression she had another solo no.1 in 2006 so Ive eddited it to 'still remains' her only uk no.1 solo single

Unbalanced and uninformative article

This is article is so unbalanced as to be worthless. Filled with pointless trivia but no mention of the most important part which is the trial and tribulations of its writers in relation to this song. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Hzh (talk • contribs) 10:33, 5 September 2008 (UTC) Hzh (talk) 10:38, 5 September 2008 (UTC)

• I have twice added the information that the two songwriters committed suicide and both times it was removed. Personally I find that to be more relevant to this song than the minutia introduced regarding the Mariah Carey recording which seems impervious to editing. The song lyrics suggest a possible suicide, and both composers did in fact commit suicide. What could be more relevant? ZincOrbie (talk) 19:57, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
  • It's an interesting tidbit. But it doesn't belong in the lead. Might be worth mentioning in the body of the article. The lead is bad enough already. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 22:26, 29 May 2009 (UTC)
    • The way the article is structured it is a bit difficult to find placement elsewhere. The only solution I can see would be to trim the lead and then add a Nut graph that focused on the Badfinger recording, adding the information there.ZincOrbie (talk) 13:57, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Oh, nice structural change. Now: "languished as an obscure album track" -- languished? Really? Most songwriters would be happy to wait only a year or so for someone to make a huge #1 hit out of their song. Wonder how this could be phrased better? Or does it need that sentence at all? --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 14:18, 2 June 2009 (UTC)
        • Thanks. Yes, "languished" indicates the song sat around for a long time, and it didn't. I'll tinker it.ZincOrbie (talk) 13:41, 3 June 2009 (UTC)

"Living is Without You" No Such Song

Nilsson's version of "Living is Without You" was also used as the opening tune to 1979's Porridge.

Is there a song called "Living is Without You", and if so, why is it being discussed in "Without You"? Is this an alternate title that was actually used in 1979's Porridge?

According to IMDB, Harry Nilsson's version of "Without You" is part of the soundtrack along with "Hit Me With Your Rhythm Stick" and "Free Inside". The reason this bothers me is that by quoting the wrong title, a link to a page warning that Wikipedia has no page for this song is created. This makes it look very official.

Correction: "Living Without You" is a song by Randy Newman that Harry Nilsson covered on his Nilsson sings Newman album. It is even possible that IMDB is confusing the two songs, since it lists "Without You" as uncredited on the soundtrack. Still, that is not the same as "Living IS Without You", and in any case this does not belong in an article about "Without You" unless it is the song "Without You" on the soundtrack. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.93.176 (talk) 20:38, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Stephen —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.73.93.176 (talk) 20:26, 18 December 2008 (UTC)

Ken Lee (Song)

The article Ken Lee (Song) was redirected this morning to this article. With the level of detail that article goes into, including transcription of the garbled lyrics, is there any thought to merging, rather than merely redirecting, that article? Jmac1962 (talk) 17:16, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

I salvaged what I thought was relevant but if you want to bring more content in feel free! --kingboyk (talk) 16:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Nilsson mistook Badfinger for Beatles

Harry Nilsson, at the time best known for his hit "Everybody's Talkin'" and for composing such hits as Three Dog Night's "One", heard Badfinger's recording of "Without You" at a party, and mistook it for a Beatles song.[2]

In the main article, there should be a comment on the influence and involvement of the Beatles regarding Badfinger's music after the above sentence, but I don't know the exact facts.

This needs some research: Wasn't Badfinger heavily influenced by the Beatles, and even helped by Paul McCartney on some songs? Weren't they recording on Apple Records? If these are true, it is no wonder that Harry Nilsson would think "Without You" was a Beatles song...

No references; only an aging memory. Perhaps the album liner notes from the CD: "Come and Get It: The Best of Badfinger" has this information. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.65.216.89 (talk) 06:19, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

• Nilsson mistook Badfinger for The Beatles because there is a similarity in sound, and yes they were both on the Apple label. McCartney wrote one song that was given to Badfinger to record, and that was "Come And Get It." Aside from that, he produced a couple of album tracks for them. George Harrison also produced some album tracks for the band. Anyway, I'm not sure how any of this relates to the actual composition. "Without You" ws not inspired or produced by any of The Beatles. ZincOrbie (talk) 19:52, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

Other Major Recordings of Quality

Sad that probably the best version of this song ever recorded, other than the Nilsson one, was recorded by Heart on their interesting (both in content and reason-for-recording) album MAGAZINE. Richopp (talk) 13:14, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

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No credit to Rachmaninoff - Piano Concerto #2 in C Minor, Op. 18?

It is amazing to me that this article is more about people who wrote and recorded the song than about the song. The notes. Someone with more knowledge than I have, and more ability, and more time than I can devote to it needs to map the passages in this song's melodies to the passages in Rachmaninoff's 2nd Piano Concerto from which they originated. Of course I wouldn't swear that Rachmaninoff is the original creator of those either. It's not rare for a composer to rearrange and elaborate something from a previous source.74.64.104.99 (talk) 20:11, 11 May 2019 (UTC)Christopher L. Simpson

I haven't noticed any similarities. I'm guessing that you are confusing this song with Eric Carmen's "All by Myself". Deb (talk) 08:04, 30 October 2019 (UTC)

Air Supply

Air Supply had a hit with this song in 1989. Why is there no mention of that anywhere in the article? - Lisa (talk - contribs) 13:15, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Nilsson's version was certified in the UK TWICE

In 1959 DISC (magazine) set up a Music Recording Certification system where any record that sold 250,000 copies in the UK was awarded a Silver Record. In March 1972 Nilsson's Without You received a Silver Disc. [1]. (Page 2) In 1973 the BPI started certifying records for UK sales, using the exact same methods as DISC. BPI also had Gold and Platinum certification levels, which DISC never had. By 1974 the BPI the sole body awarding Precious Metal Record Awards for UK sales. However the DISC Record Awards were every bit as valid.

In the 2000s many old songs were re-released as Digital Releases. The BPI certifies these at new levels of 200000, 400000, and 600000, The Digital Re-Release of Without You(released 2004) was awarded a Silver Record in 2020. [2]. However this is entirely separate to the Silver Record for the original Physical Vinyl Release.

This article needs to reflect that. 2 British Certifications, one for 250,000 vinyl discs, and one for 200,000 legal paid-for-downloads. 197.87.135.139 (talk) 20:13, 16 June 2024 (UTC)

And now article is awkward

Whoever split off the Mariah Carey recording to its own article screwed up this article. Was there even a discussion? 197.87.135.139 (talk) 15:20, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

How did the split screw up the article? George Ho (talk) 19:21, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

It appears as though the Mariah Carey version is the "definitive" version, and the only one deserving its own stand-alone article. It also is now incomplete. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.135.139 (talk) 19:32, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, the Carey version is more well known than Nilsson one at this time, and the main article about the whole song has gotten larger. Splitting it up would make more sense, yet you feel that the section about the Carey version should be either more concise than now, as complete as it was before the split, or... Oh well, I hope I know what you were saying, despite making brief reply that's supposed to be concise.

Meanwhile, I've proposed a split of the Whitney Houston version of I Will Always Love You, and I cited the Carey recording article as a reason to propose it. George Ho (talk) 20:14, 17 June 2024 (UTC)

I would disagree that the Carey version is "more weak known". It was the Nilsson version in Rules of Attraction, the Nilsson version in Vacation etc. But, perhaps more significantly, the original Badfinger recording was a Rock tune. It was the Nilsson version that radically re-imagined the song. And every one of the hundreds of subsequent versions(including Carey's) uses the Nilsson version as the blueprint. Who was it who said "When I heard Mariah Carey's version, I thought 'Why bother?'"?. When Nilsson died, headlines were "Without You singer dies". When Carey passes away, will any headlines be similar?

In a sense there are 2 versions. 1. The original Badfinger version(plus things like "If It's Love"). 2. The Nilsson version, which every other version is a second- or third-rate copy of. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.135.139 (talk) 12:37, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Being played in pop culture and mentioned in headlines (unreliable per WP:HEADLINE) don't guarantee a long-lasting standalone article. In this case, section about Nilsson's version isn't large enough to split up or spin off the content, but section Carey's version got larger. One critic may prefer Nilsson's version more than Carey's, but amount of (significant) coverage seen in an article may have been factored more for justification of splitting. --George Ho (talk) 13:24, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Speaking of headlines, Billboard refers the song as "Mariah Carey cover" and expects readers to be told brief story about the song in the body. George Ho (talk) 13:33, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

Uh, did you read that? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.135.139 (talk) 19:49, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

It The Billboard article briefly and chronologically mentions three notorious versions, including the Carey one, but the description of those versions are still brief. --George Ho (talk) 20:00, 18 June 2024 (UTC); clarified, 20:05, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

And a quote..

• "For his semifinal appearance on America’s Got Talent, the 10-year-old singer performed “Without You,” the epic ballad written by members of Badfinger, made famous in the ‘70s by the late Harry Nilsson, and covered by Mariah Carey in the ‘90s." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 197.87.135.139 (talk) 07:49, 20 June 2024 (UTC)

  As I said, Billboard's description of the song's chronological history is brief and wouldn't prevent splitting up the Mariah Carey version. Even the ten-year-old's rendition wouldn't prevent such split. Do you have reliable sources that would improve the section about Harry Nilsson's version? George Ho (talk) 08:04, 20 June 2024 (UTC)