Talk:Witi Ihimaera/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: DMT Biscuit (talk · contribs) 19:55, 26 October 2021 (UTC)

Lede

• "generally known as Witi Ihimaera" - this isn't necessary as he doesn't go by a pseudonym and the common name doesn't differ heavily from government name (see: Ernest Hemingway and Taylor Swift for examples). Note: you don't need to cut the pronunciation. Although it's atypical, most English readers won't be well versed in the Māori language to the point where it's not needed.

• Reply: Good call; is this placement of the pronunciation OK?

• Yep, good. DMT Biscuit (talk) 12:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  for being a "prolific and award-winning writer, with [a] considerable body of work" I feel the lede could be expanded. A middle paragraph detailing the progression of his career and style would be worthwhile - per your discretion. If you have any objections, please voice them - or forever hold your peace.

• Reply: Good idea. Started working on expanding it. I struggle a little with summarising this kind of thing neatly. Will keep working on it.

• That's ok. Notify me when you feel it's done/satisfactory. I'll look it - and give tips if need be. DMT Biscuit (talk) 12:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• @DMT Biscuit: What's your thoughts on it as currently drafted? Very grateful for any tips! Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 23:59, 28 October 2021 (UTC)

• Structure's good. Some slight points of err: "number of notable anthologies" - cut notable; it's implicit and can verge on WP:PUFFERY.

  "including Into the World of Light (1982, with co-editor Don Long) and the five volume series Te Ao Maramara (translated as "the world of light") (1992 to 1996)." - per summary style I think this can be cut. Personally speaking, I tend to stray from identifying specific works, unless instrumental to the subject's development.

  "notable awards" - see previous example.

  "top awards" - With exceptions (Nobel, Booker, Oscar, Tony...), this a mostly subjective claim - not best be made by us and can verge on WP:PUFFERY.

  "His novels include The Matriarch (1986)...Parihaka in the late nineteenth century." This section's pretty dense with parenthesis, dates, italics and such en masse. I think it can be summarised heavily by just focusing on the themes. My proposal: "In his novels, Ihimaera has examined contemporary Māori culture, legends and history — such as a campaign of non-violent resistance at Parihaka and the impacts of colonisation."

  I'll link some ledes I think are good examples, for present and future reference, and my own work, if you wish to enquire on my style and process. Examples: "Nick Drake", "Loveless (album)", Anarchism; my own work: A Crow Looked at Me David Berman (musician), Rupi Kaur. DMT Biscuit (talk) 08:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• @DMT Biscuit: Thanks for working with me on this, really appreciated, and the examples are excellent. I've endeavoured to summarise further, still highlighting the couple of works I think are instrumental to his development, but hopefully being a bit more selective. I hope this is getting closer rather than further away, but let me know your thoughts! Thanks again, Chocmilk03 (talk) 21:51, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• No present issues with your work. An overall improvement. Notify me when you feel thing's satisfactory and all should be steady. DMT Biscuit (talk) 22:21, 30 October 2021 (UTC)

• @DMT Biscuit: I think (/hope) I've cracked it! What do you think? :) (as always, any c/e or other tips welcome)

• All seems good. DMT Biscuit (talk) 08:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Chocmilk03 (talk) 00:49, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

• Per summary style, I think the film adaptions can be neatly grouped together, something along the lines of: 'whose work has seen multiple film adaptations".

• Reply: Done, if OK with you.

• Yep, good. DMT Biscuit (talk) 12:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  "including multiple wins at the New Zealand Book Awards spanning the period 1973 to 2016..." - fine comment, but would be better placed earlier; my proposal: "prolific and award-winning writer – including multiple wins at the New Zealand Book Awards spanning the period 1973 to 2016, the Robert Burns Fellowship (1975), the Katherine Mansfield Menton Fellowship (1993), and a Prime Minister's Award for Literary Achievement (2017).

• Reply: Done, if OK.

• Yep, good. DMT Biscuit (talk) 12:25, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  Since we have children in the infobox may as well mention his wife.

• Reply: I have been going back and forth on this, I guess I worry that adding his wife to the infobox may make him seem (to a casual reader) straight? But then obviously he is still married and has children with his wife, so it's accurate. Do you think there's anything in that concern?

• Thus is the problem with infoboxes - some things just don't fit into neat categories. I see your point regarding the perception of his sexuality; I concur and think that the mention of spouse should be excluded, as a result. DMT Biscuit (talk) 12:21, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Early Life

• "Many of his stories are set in a fictional recreation of Waituhi." - this kind of temporal jumping around really only works as an aside. So rather than a sentence in of itself, have it follow a hyphen at the end of the preceding sentence.

• Reply: Have amended, is this what you were thinking?

• "He has said that he became interested in writing when he was fifteen" - I assume this means a career or otherwise professional writing. If so, you should clarify.

• Reply: I've gone back to see what he says about the incident in his memoir, and clarified the anecdote. I have an e-book edition which doesn't have page numbers, so I've given the chapter reference, hope that's OK! Also I like the quote in the memoir better than the one in the interview previously cited, so I've replaced that too. Chocmilk03 (talk) 22:52, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• Yeah, if it's an e-book version than chapter titles are the next best option.

Career

• "Goodman Fielder Wattie Book Awards" - this comment is mostly dictated by my personal rule of thumb, but, as this comment lacks a corresponding article, how certain are we that it is notable enough?

• Reply: Not quite sure I follow; the Goodman Fielder Wattie Book Awards are linked earlier in the paragraph. If I've misunderstood, let me know?

• @Chocmilk03: mistake on my part - you're right.

  "non-fiction work called Māori (1975)" - what kind of non-fiction work? Biography, collection of essays, polemic...etc.? Best to be specific.

• Reply: Sources describe it as a booklet (it looks to have been 45 pages, from library entries); is that specific enough, do you think?

• Yeah, this is good enough. DMT Biscuit (talk) 12:18, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

  "his co-editor Don Long" - More an enquiry than anything, but, did Ihimaera and Long have a past working relationship? The prose, at least to me, implied that and if so I think that should be detailed.

• Reply: They began collaborating on the anthology in 1979 and it looks like that was the extent of it (per [1]); just poor phrasing on my part. I've edited out the 'his'.

• "come out to himself" → "accepted his sexuality" - more formal.

• Reply: Ah, I wasn't quite happy with this wording either, your suggestion is much better. Thanks and done!

• "comprehensive collection of writing by Māori" - does "by Māori" refer to the language or writer, i.e: 'comprehensive collection of writing by a Māori author' or 'comprehensive collection of writing in the Māori language'?

• Reply: By writers (the anthology itself is bilingual); I have edited, thanks.

• Having checked the source, I think "one of the world's leading indigenous writers" should be placed within quotes. It's a bold claim, which usually shouldn't be written as matter of fact, and, more to the point, "indigenous" has a lot of different applications around the world, again meaning it shouldn't be treated as a matter of fact. "literary legend in New Zealand" is a bit grandiose and a little WP:PEACOCK. Change "literary legend" to revered. Same point, less exaltation.

• Reply: Fair comments, amended. I've just removed the latter part of the sentence as I think the rest of the paragraph makes the points more factually.

Personal life

• As his marriage is covered by the mention of Nights in the Gardens of Spain - where I would have recommended it go - I'd say it can be removed from here. If you agree, feel free to edit the mention that corresponds with Nights in the Gardens of Spain as you see fit. Furthermore, I'd elect to remove the personal life section as a whole as the only other feature appears to me as exceedingly tangential and trivial. Look at that this way: imagine someone was introducing you to a stranger and then started talking about your nephew. Bit weird, no?

• Reply: Yep, good call on all counts. Amended!

Selected works

• I have no umbrage with the chosen material more with the execution. Written in a manner of citations, this seems adverse to comfortable reading for the layman - and so close to the similar-looking references it may be mistaken as one in the same. Even I struggle a bit to distinguish between titles. A lẚ your other author GA, Jacquie Sturm, I'd strongly suggest changing the currently listed work to that format. Note: as Ihimaera was a prolific writer you could create a list for his bibliography, where this additional material would be most appropriate (see: Ursula K. Le Guin bibliography for an example.)

• Reply: Yeah, I've never been sure how much detail to include in these kinds of sections. I've extracted the detail and will create a bibilography page at some stage (great idea). I've changed the format, is that OK for now? Or should it be reduced further? (potentially some of the 'other works' could be trimmed...?) Chocmilk03 (talk) 06:56, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

• Yeah, that format is good. As I said, the material displayed is of no issue to me. It doesn't affect the present review and is per your consideration. DMT Biscuit (talk) 12:15, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Source review, copyvio and spotchecks

Source review

• Satisfied with the reliability of the sources.

Copyvio

Copyvio did flag up [14] as too close:https://copyvios.toolforge.org/?lang=en&project=wikipedia&oldid=1044173670&action=compare&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.read-nz.org%2Fwriter%2Fihimaera-witi%2F. Inspection shows that this mostly regarded dry or objective material, quotes and titles and such. Some turn of phrase is too similar and will be highlighted for change:

• [14]: "He remained with the ministry until 1989, apart from leave in 1975 to take up a Burns Fellowship at the University of Otago and, in 1982, the writing fellowship at Victoria University."

• Article: "He worked at the Ministry until 1989, apart from brief breaks to take up the Robert Burns Fellowship at the University of Otago in 1975 and a Victoria University of Wellington writing fellowship in 1982."

• Reply: Eek, good catch. Thanks. I have reworked this one.

• Article: "The award acknowledges the work of individuals who are exemplary in their chosen artistic field."

• [14]: "The premiere award acknowledges the work of individuals who are exemplary in their chosen field of artistic endeavour."

• Reply: Reworded slightly and made a quotation, if that is OK?

• Article: "short-term residency in world literature at George Washington University".

• [14]: "short-term residency in world literature at George Washington University".

• Reply: Struggled a bit with this one and phrasing it in a different way. I suppose we don't need to say short-term, it's enough just to say it was in 2004. How's the amend?

• I'm fine with all the amendments. DMT Biscuit (talk) 12:17, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

Spotchecks

• [30] doesn't seem to mention Listener - is this included elsewhere?

• Reply: Ah yeah, it's from 28 and 29 (the NZ Listener articles). I don't actually like the phrasing here (it's kind of journalistic!) and don't think it adds anything, so I've just cut it.

Issues related to spotchecks thus far notwithstanding, I am satisfied with my spotcheck review.

@DMT Biscuit: Thanks heaps for these comments, very helpful! I have worked through a few points and will pick up the rest later. :) Cheers, Chocmilk03 (talk) 00:35, 27 October 2021 (UTC)