Talk:Women in ancient Rome/GA1

GA Review

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Reviewer: 3family6 (talk · contribs) 20:34, 13 November 2014 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose, no copyvios, spelling and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   No apparent copyvios, and the article is well-written for the most part.

• The lead does not adequately summarize that content of the article. It starts off as a discussion of women as citizens. It would be better if it outlined what is discussed in the article, and should be kept very generalized. Specific discussions should be merged into the article body--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "In the early Empire, the legal standing of daughters differs little if at all from that of sons." - changed to "differed" to match past tense in the rest of the paragraph.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• Done on behalf of nom. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• "Although the rights and status of women in the earliest period of Roman history were more restricted than [later on]... ...as early as the 5th century BCE, Roman women could own land, write their own wills, and appear in court." - shouldn't the comma after BCE be removed? The whole point of the statement is when women could own land, write wills, and appear in court.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• In my reading this is OK? —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• With the comma, it makes the 5th century BCE statement optional. The way the sentence is now, I could write it as "Although the rights and status of women in the earliest period of Roman history were more restricted than in the late Republic and Empire, Roman women could own land, write their own wills, and appear in court." Is that what the sentence is try to say? Or it trying to say this? - "Although the rights and status of women in the earliest period of Roman history were more restricted than in the late Republic and Empire, in as early as the 5th century BCE Roman women could own land, write their own wills, and appear in court." Now can you see the difference?--¿3family6 _contribs 16:28, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• "It has been noted[37] that while women were often impugned for their feeblemindedness and ignorance of the law, and thus in need of protection by male advocates, in reality actions were taken to restrict their influence and effectiveness." - Specify which author notes this, and put the citation at the end of the sentence.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "During the classical period of Roman law (late Republic and Principate), a man or woman[56] could end a marriage simply because he or she wanted to, and for no other reason." - Is there a reason that the citation is in the middle of the sentence instead of the end? It interrupts flow where it is right now.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "Although modern definitions of what makes a good relationship between husband and wife might value different things..." - that should be assumed. Is there a particular reason to mention this here?--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• Done on behalf of nom. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• "At one time, the spinning of wool was a central domestic occupation, and indicated a family's self-sufficiency, since the wool would be produced on their estates." - At which time? Specify.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• Done on behalf of nom. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• "Even women of wealth weren't supposed to be idle ladies of leisure." - Informal. Change to "were not."--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• Done on behalf of nom. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• "Some obvious occupations for a woman would be wet nurse, actress, dancer or acrobat, prostitute, and midwife — not all of equal respectability.[101]" - I'd suggest changing "obvious" to "typical."--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• Done on behalf of nom. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• Under "In politics," quote marks are used for a block quote. Per Manual of Style, decorative quote marks are only used for pull quotes.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• Done. Quotations are fine, but I agree that "carryout" should be removed. —Brigade Piron (talk) 11:06, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

• The quotation itself isn't the problem. It's that it uses this template - {{pull quote}} - instead of this one - {{bq}}. The first is used only if a quotation is a pull quote - a quote repeated somewhere in the article, and then pulled out for highlight - a very rare occurrence (an example would be if the Juvenal quote in "Women in law", which is in a side-box, was also given in the article body). The latter is for a standard block quote.--¿3family6 _contribs 16:28, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

1. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (reference section): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

   Assuming AGF on the offline references as I do not have access to them. No original research present. Well-cited for the most part, but I have several comments below detailing the need for further citations:

• "Under Augustus, a woman who had gained the ius liberorum, the legal right to certain privileges after bearing three children, was also released from guardianship.,[44] and the emperor Claudius banned agnatic guardianship." - Needs a citation for Claudius.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "During the classical era of Roman law, marriage required no ceremony, but only a mutual will and agreement to live together in harmony. Marriage ceremonies, contracts, and other formalities were meant only to prove that a couple had, in fact, married. Under early or archaic Roman law, marriages were of three kinds: confarreatio, symbolized by the sharing of bread (panis farreus); coemptio, "by purchase"; and usus, by mutual cohabitation. Patricians always married by confarreatio, while plebeians married by the latter two kinds. In marriage by usus, if a woman was absent for three consecutive nights at least once a year, she would avoid her husband establishing legal control over her. This differed from the Athenian custom of arranged marriage and sequestered wives who were not supposed to walk in the street unescorted." - This paragraph needs at minimum a citation at the end.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• The summaries of Valerius's comments need to have citations attached to them.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• 2nd paragraph in "remarriage" needs at least one citation at the end of the paragraph.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "but as with any other crime, laws against domestic abuse can be assumed to fail to prevent it." - This needs a citation.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "Some modern historians believe that Poppaea died from a miscarriage or childbirth, and that the story was exaggerated to vilify Nero." - Needs a citation.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "One of the Roman women most famous for their strength and influence as a mother was Cornelia, the mother of the Gracchi. Julius Caesar, whose father died when he was only a young teen, had a close relationship with his mother, Aurelia, whose political clout was essential in preventing the execution of her 18-year-old son during the proscriptions of Sulla." - Each of these statements needs a citation.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• In "Daily life", the first paragraph needs some citations, as those currently there only address Ovid's relationship with his wife and also the characteristics of a virtuous matron. The previous sentences are not directly supported.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "Even women of the upper classes were expected to be able to spin and weave in virtuous emulation of their rustic ancestors — a practice ostentatiously observed by Livia." - Needs a citation.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "Unlike landholding, industry was not considered an honorable profession for those of senatorial rank. Cicero suggested that in order to gain respectability a merchant should buy land. Attitudes changed during the Empire, however, and Claudius created legislation to encourage the upper classes to engage in shipping. Women of the upper classes are documented as owning and running shipping corporations." - This paragraph needs a citation.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "Most Romans lived in insulae (apartment buildings), and those housing the poorer plebeian and non-citizen families usually lacked kitchens. The need to buy prepared food meant that "carryout" was a thriving business. Most of the Roman poor, whether male or female, young or old, earned a living through their own labour." - Again, needs a citation.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "Both survived the turbulence of the time to enjoy a long marriage. Porcia, the daughter of Cato the Younger and wife of Brutus the assassin, came to a less fortunate but (in the eyes of her time) heroic end: she killed herself as the Republic collapsed, just as her father did." - Both sentences need citations.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• Numerous paragraphs in "In politics" that do not have citations. I will let this comment stand for the rest of the article - Assume a minimum of one citation per paragraph.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• Need some more citations about the Vestal virgins.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "The couple were not permitted to divorce, and if the flaminica died the flamen had to resign his office." - Needs a citation.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• "These highly public official duties for women contradict the commonplace notion that women in ancient Rome took part only in private or domestic religion." Needs attribution and a citation.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• The discussion of bath houses needs some more citations, particularly for Clement and Hadrian. I'm assuming that the cite at the end of the paragraph supports the whole discussion, but it needs to be given at earlier points as well.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• The final paragraph in "Attire and adornment" needs a lot more citations. Basically, provide a cite at the end of each topic discussion, i.e., the aftermath of Cannae, the conquest of Carthage, etc.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

1. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

   Broad scope and focused on the subject. However, there are some areas that need expansion:

• "The Christianization of the Empire, beginning with the conversion of the Emperor Constantine in the early 4th century, eventually had consequences for the legal status of women." - And what were the consequences? This deserves more than one sentence.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)
• Jumping off from that, very little of the Christian period is discussed at all, as Brigade Piron mentioned on the talk page. Is that detailed in another article? If so, that should be explained in the lead. If not, then this article needs significant expansion. But, considering the current article's length, the subject might deserve an article of its own.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

1. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

   Neutral, encyclopedic tone.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

2. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

   Quite stable - some instances of vandalism, but those were quickly undone.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:01, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

3. It is illustrated by images and other media, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free content have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

   Images are well-suited to the article subject. There were a handful with some minor licensing issue, but that was merely because the permission templates weren't fully filled out. I rectified this myself because it has little bearing on the article itself and won't compromise my review.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:01, 18 November 2014 (UTC)

4. Overall: Needs significant work on citations, the lead, and scope of the article. Some prose work is needed as well.--¿3family6 _contribs 17:27, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

• N Though Brigade Piron addressed some of the problems, not all have been resolved.--¿3family6 _contribs 13:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

1. Pass/Fail:

Comment

Not wanting to trespass, but I'm afraid that Historian7 (talk · contribs) has not edited for nearly a month. I do hope s/he will return to this though, there's not much further work needed and the lion's share has certainly been done. Perhaps consider notifying WP:Classical Greece and Rome to see if anyone is willing to chip-in and help address some of the issues? —Brigade Piron (talk) 19:18, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's a good idea. I had checked Historian7's contribution history and noticed that they have been absent.--¿3family6 _contribs 04:57, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm leaving this up for seven days from this point on. Any editor should feel free to pitch in on this. Thank you, Brigade Piron, for the work that you have done on this nom. If this nom has to be failed, I think you should still get credit for improving the article to GA if it is nominated and passed in the future.--¿3family6 _contribs 18:51, 22 November 2014 (UTC)

Had to fail, as article is not up to standard yet.--¿3family6 _contribs 13:46, 29 November 2014 (UTC)