Talk:Workers' Party (Turkey)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 22:25, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

"scientific socialism" or "Marxism-Leninism" ?

The IP is a Marxist-Leninist party, the use of "scientific socialism" that several... "IPs" try to impose in the article is merely a typical expression used my Marxist-Leninists to describe their creed. The article in its present condition is mostly propaganda by its partisans. The IP also advocates "militarist secularism" since long before the discovery of the Ergenekon plot that led its leader to jail. And the IP is a staunch supporter of the Pyongyang regime as well as an ally of the Grey Wolves and other Turkish nationalists on the matter of denial of the Armenian Genocide. --Minorities observer (talk) 14:51, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

On ideology

İP substantially opposes namings like "Marxism-Leninism" to define its ideology. Rather, it prefers the term, "scientific socialism". Chairman Perinçek states that, "theory cannot be refrigerated with the names of great revolutionaries. Teachers of scientific socialism are mortal, but science and life continously improves" (D. Perinçek, "Bilimsel Sosyalizm ve Bilim", İstanbul 2011, Kaynak Publishers, p. 21). In this sense, İP's explanation of "scientific socialism" covers contributions of Marx, Engels, Lenin, Stalin and Mao, as it is stated in the party report named "The Theoretical Heritage", which was accepted in İP's 3rd congress and is still in effect in providing a framework for Party's theoretical assumptions. (You can find this report in English pages of İP's website) There is no such thing as "militarist secularism" theoretically, but yes, İP is a hardline secularist party, which rather prefers to call itself "jacobin like". This definition can be seen in various party organs, such as "Teori" and "Bilim ve Ütopya". On the other hand, there are no concrete accusations to prove İP's "militarist secularist" position in Ergenekon indictments officially. Please provide concrete evidences if you put forward dubious claims. And lastly, yes İP supports Pyongyang regime decisively, just like many other Orthodox Marxists, Maoists or Stalinists all over the world. İP is one of the sister parties of Workers' Party of DPRK. İP also leads a pro-DPRK NGO named "Korean Friendship Association" in Turkey. Chairman Perinçek met with Kim Yong Il and Kim Il Sung various times in 1990s. And he is also one of the co-presidents of the CILRECO (International Liaison Committee for Reunification and Peace in Korea) which supports DPRK's theses for reunification in Korean peninsula at global scale. Bu this doesn't prove that İP is a "nationalist" organization. Rather, this proves that İP is definately anti-imperialist and anti-US. Lastly, in İP's theoretical organs such as "Teori" and "Aydınlık", "reactionary nationalism of MHP" and "Kemalist nationalism" are particularly seperated. In this respect, party evaluates that, Kemalist nationalism was no a reactionary nationalism, but rather, it was a patriotic stance of national bourgeoisie to secure national independence (see, D. Perinçek, "Kemalist Devrim-3: Altı Ok", 1999, Kaynak Publishers; & D. Perinçek, "Kemalist Devrim-5: Kemalizmin Felsefesi ve Kaynakları", 2006, Kaynak Publishers). Thus, İP doesn't see national bourgeois revolutionary nationalisms like Kemalism, Nasserism, pan-Africanism, Baathism etc. as a threat against socialist construction. On the contrary, it evaluates that these were progressive steps towards socialism in histories of various opressed nations. And it militantly defends progressive gains of Kemalist against political Islam and micro-nationalism (either Turkish or Kurdish). İP also blames Grey Wolves' nationalism as being "micro nationalist and separatist" and criticizes its anti-Kurdish/reactionary stance (see, Teori, January 2007). İP leaders openly rejects that they are "nationalist", rather, they prefer to use the term, "patriotic" and "Third Worldist" in Maoist sense. According to Chairman Perinçek, "since the social classes are universal, ideologies cannot be national. Though class structure of each society has peculiarites due to uneven development, this doesn't mean that the mode of production is ahistorically different in each country. Thus thoughts of Marx, Lenin, and Mao are also universal" (see, D. Perinçek, "Mao Zedung'un 21. yüzyıla bıraktığı miras", Bilim ve Ütopya, Eylül 2012, pp.10-11).Perinçek also stated that he had never called himself nationalist, but rather, he is a "scientific socialist" while he was arrested in Switzerland in 2005. İP doesn't share the same arguements with Turkish nationalists in Armenian issue as well. It rejects the claims of "Armenian genocide" on the bases of Soviet documents of time and Armenian Bolshevik's writings. Kaynak Publishers has been publishing Leninist Soviet scholars' researchs and historical documents from Soviet era. (You can find a list of İP's publications in Armenian issue here: http://www.kaynakyayinlari.com/kategori/ermeni-meselesi.aspx) İP doesn't simply against Armenian nation as a whole, it contradicts with Dashnak micro-nationalism and pan-Armenian ideology, as well as it rejects pan-Turanism. In İP's recent "West Asia Union" program, Armenia is considered as one of the closest allies of revolutionary Turkey of near future. All in all, İP's ideological stance cannot be defined via personal assumptions. Rather, in Wikipedia, you have to take party's own explanations into consideration at least to be objective. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.227.155.71 (talk) 09:52, 18 August 2013 (UTC)

Merge back in Patriotic Party (Turkey)

Same leader, same party newspaper, same website, probably same headquarter => same party, just rebranded, as stated in the articles, even if joined by a few new members. Therefore propose merging the article Patriotic Party (Turkey) back in and renaming to Patriotic Party (Turkey). --PanchoS (talk) 09:08, 11 March 2015 (UTC)

It certainly seems like the sensible thing to do, but Turkey has quite an extensive history of parties closing and reopening under a different name, and the consensus in those cases is to treat them as different parties. e.g. see Template:Kurdish parties in Turkey, all parties pretty much with the same politicians, closed and reopened either because of the constitutional court's ruling or the party's own decision. Or see Template:Milli Görüş parties. To be fair, in some of these changes, they probably had to change their headquarters, because the closed party's properties are seized by the government, but other than that, they were just the same party under a different name, a peculiarity of Turkish politics.--Cfsenel (talk) 23:20, 12 March 2015 (UTC)

I think in this case a merger is warranted. Considering that both articles state that the party merely changed it's name. Charles Essie (talk) 20:48, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Oppose Same party, same website, same leader but different priorities and purpose. İP at least tried to appear leftist while VP uses Kemalism as its gather point. The difference is at least as much as that of FP and AKP.131.111.5.153 (talk) 05:36, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

It is a little like HDP and BDP. They are both pro Kurdish, but HDP has a different appeal with different priorities. 131.111.5.153 (talk) 05:39, 23 January 2018 (UTC)

Closed, given the recent consensus not to merge. Klbrain (talk) 22:48, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

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