Talk:World War II casualties/Archives/2017/July

Russian numbers

There are new numbers in Russian Wikipedia.Xx236 (talk) 13:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting information from Бессмертный полк России [1] We need to follow up on this. I would like to see copies of these Gosplan documents that claim 42 million war dead. Бессмертный полк России is a private not an official source. --Woogie10w (talk) 13:36, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks again Xx236 I noted this over at World War II casualties of the Soviet Union. The organization that made this claim Immortal Regiment has an ultra nationalist pro Putin agenda. They did not produce the original documents that claimed the war dead of 42 million. More than likely these documents by Gosplan covered only those persons in the civilian economy and excluded 11 million military personnel and 6 million persons in the Gulag/Special settlements. We need to see the documents that make this absurd claim of 42 million war dead. --Woogie10w (talk) 23:19, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

There's no link to https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties_of_the_Soviet_Union — Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.66.5.216 (talk) 23:22, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Recently this source was deleted from the article. It claims that the Soviet Union lost 11,000,000 soldiers and 7,000,000 civilians. Should it be used in the article? If not, I would like to hear sound and reasonable arguments as to why.--R2D2015 (talk) 12:49, 25 June 2017 (UTC)

My concern is that as this book is not focused on the USSR or the Second World War it can't be considered authoritative on this particular issue. What is its source for this figure? Nick-D (talk) 09:06, 26 June 2017 (UTC)

According to Russian government figures, USSR losses within postwar borders now stand at 26.6 million.including 8.5 million due to war related famine and disease The Sources were cited in my edit [2] (I will send jpgs of the pages if you can read Russian) The population in mid 1941 was 196.7 million and 170.5 million in 1945 based on the 1993 Russian Academy of Science study. The lower figure of 17 million does not include the millions who starved to death during the war. In Russia today there are critics of the official figure of 27 million war dead, they range from 20 to 42 million. Sources in English generally range from 25-27 million, they throw the number at you without explaining the details of how it was derived or the source. Why do we have these differences? How is it that reliable source A says that the war dead are 27 million and B. tells us 17 million. The explanation for our dilemma is in an analysis of the Soviet population from 1939-46. Because the sources for Soviet population data during the war are fragmentary, the figures for births and natural deaths are rough estimates. For example the figures for births during the war are based on a survey of the Total fertility rate done after the war which put the number of births during the war at about 50% of the prewar level. The estimated natural Mortality rate was 2.18 % in 1940 and 1.59% in 1946. The fall in the normal death rate during the war was due to the fact that adults, especially men, had a higher death rate than those persons under 18 and women who survived the war. The Russian government figure of 26.6 million war dead is based on the assumption that the wartime increase in infant mortality was 1.3 million and that persons dying of natural causes declined by about 3 million. The Russian analysis points out that 8.5 million deaths are due to indirect causes such as famine and disease, they list 16 million deaths caused by direct causes including 7.4 million civilians and 8.7 million military battlefield deaths. Sources in English sometimes pick up only the only 16-18 million deaths due to direct causes and ignore the 8.5 million deaths due to indirect causes. I need to to explain the reasons for these differences while at the same time avoiding original research and a synthesis of material.--Woogie10w (talk) 14:59, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Please, I look forward to your comments, criticism and questions. --Woogie10w (talk) 16:01, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

Today I finally got around to posting a brief summary of why the Russian war dead figures vary. I look forward to your comments, criticism and questions.--Woogie10w (talk) 23:10, 11 July 2017 (UTC)