Talk:World language

Why not add German as a world language?

German is described as a “major language of the world” in its own article. So why not add it here as well? XXE XDXx (talk) 10:28, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

The short answer is that sources on the subject of world languages typically do not consider it one (thought there are some exceptions). What level of sourcing to require was discussed back in 2021 (see Talk:World language/Archive 3#A summary of the sources located so far, and a suggestion), and it was decided that we would be fairly strict. It may be useful to look at the table of sources compiled at the time, which I'll copy here for convenience. TompaDompa (talk) 10:45, 25 August 2023 (UTC)

Potential world languages

	Arabic	Chinese	Dutch	English	French	German	Hindi/Hindustani	Japanese	Latin	Malay/Indonesian	Portuguese	Russian	Spanish	Swahili
Ammon (2010)	Discussed	Leaning no	Not discussed	Yes (predominant)	Leaning yes	Discussed	Leaning no	Discussed	Not discussed	Discussed	Discussed	Discussed	Yes	Not discussed
Benrabah (2014)	Yes	Yes	Not mentioned	Yes (unique position)	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Not mentioned	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes
de Mejía (2002)	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Yes	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Yes	Yes	Yes	Not mentioned
García (2014)	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Intermediate	Yes	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Intermediate	Not mentioned	Yes	Not mentioned
Lu (2008)	Not mentioned	No	Not mentioned	Yes	Yes	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not discussed	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Yes	Not mentioned
Mar-Molinero (2004)	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Not discussed	Discussed	Not discussed
Mazrui (1976)	Regional	Regional/National	Not mentioned	Yes	Yes	Regional	National	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Regional/National	Not mentioned	Regional	Yes	Regional
Mufwene (2010)	Yes (second-tier)	No (major language)	Not mentioned	Yes (foremost)	Yes	Not mentioned	No (major language)	Not mentioned	Formerly	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Yes	Yes (second-tier)	Not mentioned
Pei (1968)	Discussed	No	Not mentioned	Discussed	Discussed	Discussed	No	Discussed	Not mentioned	Discussed	Discussed	No	Discussed	Not mentioned
Wright (2012)	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Yes	Yes	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Not mentioned	Formerly	Not mentioned	Yes	Not mentioned	Yes	Not mentioned

References
References

German is not usually considered to be a world language because:

• It has not that many (total) speakers compared to other languages which are typically considered world languages.
• It is mainly spoken in Germany, Austria and Switzerland, meaning that the language is not very widespread aside from Central Europe.
  • These are all very developed countries, meaning that almost all German speakers also speak English to a sufficient degree, making it quite unnecessary to learn German as a lingua franca.—-Maxeto0910 (talk) 12:44, 5 February 2024 (UTC)

The main reason why I became interested in this Wiki-article, was to try and learn how useful - around the world - were the various languages which I had studied - namely, French, German, Spanish, Russian, Portuguese and Arabic]. Certainly, the picture is somewhat different now than it was in the 1960s, when I first looked at that question. At that time, German was very much a lingua franca in central and eastern Europe (and indeed Turkey) - and, to an extent, still continues to serve as one even now, despite having conceded ground to English.... But Maxeto is correct: it is no longer a lingua franca once you leave Europe.

I do of course realise that "my own personal impressions" do not qualify as a reliable source in the Wikipedia context ! --DLMcN (talk) 12:23, 7 February 2024 (UTC)

Perhaps worth mentioning languages which do not quite 'make the cut'?

How about including this sentence at the very end of the article? >

Some scholars (but only a minority) would also include Portuguese, Chinese, and/or German in their list of world languages.

.... and then adding Benrabah [and perhaps Wright and de Mejia] as sources?

[We did discuss this possibility in May 2021].

--DLMcN (talk) 16:12, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

Whatever we do, we have to be consistent about it. For instance, if Benrabah is sufficient sourcing to add Portuguese, then the same must apply to adding Japanese and Swahili. The easiest ways to be consistent are to be as inclusive or as restrictive as possible. The article is currently closer to being maximally restrictive. I think it would be very difficult to be any more inclusive while staying consistent without going all the way to maximum inclusivity. This specific suggestion would create a two-tier system, which was discussed at some length back in February and March of 2021 (see Talk:World language/Archive 3#Two categories?) and which I don't think is a particularly good idea. I laid out my thoughts on the sources and how to apply them, as well as some reasons why this is somewhat complicated, back in May 2021 at Talk:World language/Archive 3#A summary of the sources located so far, and a suggestion. I don't think we have sufficient sourcing to say that only a minority of scholars would include certain languages. TompaDompa (talk) 19:15, 3 January 2024 (UTC)

I think we could do that.

I would probably come closest to calling Portuguese a world language, as it has a lot of native speakers, a significant number of L2 learners, and is spoken in South America, Southern Africa and Europe.

I have already addressed in the thread above why German is usually not considered a world language.

And, despite its many speakers and being the native language of a powerful country, Mandarin—just like Japanese, for example—is just not geographically widespread enough and too linguistically isolated in order to really be an influential language on the world stage: https://www.weforum.org/agenda/2016/01/which-are-the-world-s-most-influential-languages/. And because of China's restrictive policies, major Chinese-language cultural exports rarely enter countries outside China. I'd probably even place Japanese over Mandarin in terms of having the potential of being a world language because of Japan having way more soft power than China. Maxeto0910 (talk) 16:02, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

How would you do this while remaining consistent in the application of sources? TompaDompa (talk) 19:17, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Looking back at our discussion in January [and referring to TompaD's Table], we see that, in addition to Benrabah, Wright [and de Mejia] also mention Portuguese - but without including Japanese or Swahili. So Maxeto's suggestion is well worth considering. --DLMcN (talk) 19:43, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

I'll quote myself from May 2021: We should not take Wright into consideration for the modern languages. The source starts off by saying "For the purposes of this chapter", before going into their proposed definition and examples. The chapter in question—"Convergence and Divergence in World Languages"—is about how languages change over time, which seems to me to be qualitatively quite different from the contexts other sources consider. It seems to be talking about something different than the other sources using the same term, in other words. We must not fit our approach to our conclusions, and using Wright to justify the inclusion of Portuguese would seem like cherry-picking—unless we decide to be a lot less strict in terms of the level of sourcing required overall. TompaDompa (talk) 19:57, 1 October 2024 (UTC)

Indeed, I do feel that you (TompaD) are adopting an over-strict adherence to "rules". Surely there are occasions when we can be allowed a more 'relaxed' approach? ... Some acknowledgement of the inter-continental strength of Portuguese might well be one of them - [because "Consensus" is one of the criteria mentioned in Wikipedia]. --DLMcN (talk) 06:05, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Wikipedia is supposed to reflect the viewpoints of the sources, not editors. It doesn't matter what we think should count as a world language or not, what matters is what the sources say. This is the very essence of WP:NPOV (The relative prominence of each viewpoint among Wikipedia editors or the general public is irrelevant and should not be considered.), a policy which also outright says This policy is non-negotiable, and the principles upon which it is based cannot be superseded by other policies or guidelines, nor by editor consensus. (emphasis in original). TompaDompa (talk) 06:31, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

TompaD - I was focussing on your: "... unless we decide to be a lot less strict in terms of the level of sourcing required". --DLMcN (talk) 07:19, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Ah, I see. We could indeed lower the threshold for inclusion significantly, though we would of course have to apply that consistently to all languages. WP:Consensus has for the last few years been to take a rather restrictive approach to what goes on the list, but as always WP:Consensus can change. I stand by what I said before about not really seeing a viable middle ground between the current approach and being maximally inclusive, however. TompaDompa (talk) 21:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

In May 2021 you did actually say: "I [TompaDompa] am open to changing my mind about pretty much all of these points" - where Wright was included in that list. --DLMcN (talk) 09:44, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

I could change my mind about that, yes. What's the argument for doing so? TompaDompa (talk) 21:27, 2 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think I see the point you are making. I have been trying to persuade you to take account of the "Consensus" of opinion - but this is, admittedly, not a consensus which involves reading and assessing Wright's book. It is influenced by a recognition of the fact that Portuguese is a flourishing intercontinental language. That is of course self-evident, and does not require sources to support it. In any event, my vote still goes towards making some sort of secondary mention of Portuguese, citing Wright and Benrabah.... Incidentally I notice that you did, later on, compile a more restrictive Table where Wright was included. --DLMcN (talk) 06:16, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

It is influenced by a recognition of the fact that Portuguese is a flourishing intercontinental language. That is of course self-evident, and does not require sources to support it. Even if we accept that for the sake of argument, that is not the same thing as being a world language.

Do you understand why Wright was included in that table, even though I said We should not take Wright into consideration for the modern languages.? It's because of Wright's description of Latin as a former world language (my specific words at the time were We should add Latin as a former world language, and cite Wright as well as Mufwene for this.). You'll note that the more restrictive table does not count Wright as "yes" on Portuguese, but as "discussed". TompaDompa (talk) 15:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

... or perhaps there is no need to cite anybody, because we would actually be denying a "World-Language" status to Portuguese. Justification for mentioning it is the fact that it is the only other prominently inter-continental language on the globe, apart from those already listed. --DLMcN (talk) 08:22, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

That's your opinion. Or in other words, WP:Original research. TompaDompa :::::::::::(talk) 15:28, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

TompaD - Re: Your request for a citation to accompany my latest post > We could change the wording to: "The only other prominently inter-continental language on the globe is Portuguese. Just a few academics indicate that it might be possible to regard it as a World Language" ... and then cite Benrabah and Wright? --DLMcN (talk) 17:02, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

What source says that The only other prominently inter-continental language on the globe is Portuguese in the context of world languages, specifically? Per WP:No original research, References must be cited in context and on topic. because Even with well-sourced material, if you use it out of context, or to state or imply a conclusion not directly and explicitly supported by the source, you are engaging in original research. We must not let our own views on the matter dictate the contents of the article—we must follow the sources. TompaDompa (talk) 17:17, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I am actually quite baffled by your insistence that we need a source in order to mention that "Portuguese is an inter-continental language" [something which is true regardless of the context in which it is stated]... Surely it is 'common knowledge' that it is spoken in Brazil, Portugal, Mozambique, Angola etc. [and this is relevant because neither Japanese nor Swahili are used in a second continent; < You drew attention to these two latter languages when discussing Benrabah, and the need to be 'consistent' when highlighting Portuguese].

>

You must have seen the Wikipedia article: "You don't need to cite that the sky is blue"... where we read: "Many editors misunderstand the citation policy, seeing it as a tool to enforce, reinforce, or cast doubt upon a particular point of view in a content dispute, rather than as a means to verify Wikipedia's information". --DLMcN (talk) 18:29, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Whether Portuguese is an intercontinental language is not the point of contention here. Whether mentioning it in this article is warranted, based on the sources making that point in this context, is. TompaDompa (talk) 18:37, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

Among other things, consistency means we must approach this topic as though we had no knowledge about it other than what we read in the sources. The article must rest upon the sources on the topic. If we wish to include an argument that language X should be considered a world language (or indeed should not be) because of reason Y, that argument needs to be made by the sources. TompaDompa (talk) 18:49, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

The text you added to the article, The only other prominently inter-continental language on the globe is Portuguese, but academics are reluctant to describe it as a World Language., is argumentative. The argument that is made is that Portuguese should be considered a world language because it is (prominently) intercontinental. If this is an argument that is made by the sources, the sources making that argument need to be cited. If it is not made by the sources, then it must be removed. We have a canonical example of WP:Improper editorial synthesis regarding the UN and war, and the similarities should hopefully be obvious. Consistency also mandates that, if this is included, all other languages for which the sourcing (not the arguments) is at least on par also be included. This is why trying to work out whether an individual language should be mentioned is going about it backwards—the proper way of doing it is working out a standard for what level of sourcing we should require in order to include a language, and then apply that standard consistently by adding everything that meets those requirements. TompaDompa (talk) 19:03, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

I noticed this in the main article (under 'Concept'): "Other potential indicators [of World-Language status] are ... number of countries that use the language as an official language as well as those countries' geographical distribution ..." > OK, so I could change my text to read: "Another widely spoken language is Portuguese ..." - Would that be acceptable to you? --DLMcN (talk) 19:16, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

If I'm interpreting your suggestion correctly, that would basically just tweak the surface-level wording while maintaining the same argumentative core, which doesn't really resolve the fundamental problems here. But maybe this will help us understand each other better: why do you want this to be included? TompaDompa (talk) 20:07, 3 October 2024 (UTC)

1. As you can see, other people besides me believe that it would be appropriate to give Portuguese at least a secondary mention; [I agree that it does not quite 'make the cut']. Mentioning Portuguese adds important and relevant information to this topic.

2. It is quite logical that a World Language should enjoy a relatively wide geographic distribution - but despite that, it seems that you insist that such an assertion needs to be backed up by a citation. It will of course lengthen the post, but here goes: "A World Language should enjoy a relatively wide geographic distribution [insert reference 1 by Ammon here]. To an extent, Portuguese fulfills this requirement - but despite that, academics are reluctant to grant it a 'World-Language' status"... So if I posted this, would you immediately delete it? ... Alternatively [if the Wiki rules allow it] we might reword the last part: "... but only a few academics are prepared to consider granting it World-Language status [citing Benrabah and Wright].

3. I do not see any other language capable of claiming the right to be added there^. [OK, this does make me guilty of 'Original Research', but that comment is not for inclusion in the article]. --DLMcN (talk) 14:08, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

... Do you not see how your suggestion is a textbook example of WP:SYNTH? TompaDompa (talk) 21:20, 4 October 2024 (UTC)

No, it is not really a case of Synthesis [or it can easily be modified to 'conform to the rules'] because the last part could stand perfectly well on its own. The first portion got introduced later, when it seemed relevant to indicate that Portuguese probably had a stronger claim than Swahili and Japanese. So something along these lines might still be tacked on, but only as a purely incidental remark to provide extra illumination - not to clinch the point... So that might lead to: "A small minority of academics is prepared to consider granting Portuguese a World-Language status [citing Benrabah and perhaps Wright]. Its geographical distribution [insert reference 1 by Ammon here] is a recommending factor". --DLMcN (talk) 09:22, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Portuguese having a stronger claim than e.g. Swahili and Japanese is your opinion, not something that the sources say. If Benrabah is good enough to cite for Portuguese, basic consistency mandates that Benrabah is good enough to cite for other languages as well. Ammon also does not actually make the point that the geographic distribution of Portuguese is a point in its favour when it comes to being considered for world language status—another case of WP:Improper editorial synthesis on your part. TompaDompa (talk) 12:03, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Portuguese

@Likemav647: Whether something is listed on this article as a world language or not is determined by what sources on the overarching topic of world languages say about it—in other words, whether the balance of the sources is that the language is considered a world language or not. Whether you, I, or any other editor think it counts as a world language is immaterial—making that determination ourselves, no matter what evidence we have to back it up, is WP:Original research, which is not allowed on Wikipedia. We have to be able to say that according to source such-and-such, the language is considered a world language. As you'll note, that is the case for the other listed languages besides Portuguese. TompaDompa (talk) 23:20, 5 July 2024 (UTC)

https://sistema.funarte.gov.br/tainacan/periodicos/mundializacao-globalizacao-e-a-unidade-imaginaria-da-lingua-portuguesaglobalization-and-the-imaginary-unit-of-portuguese-language/

https://www.dynamiclanguage.com/the-global-footprint-of-portuguese-understanding-its-influence-and-reach/#:~:text=The%20Role%20of%20Portuguese%20in,various%20international%20forums%20and%20organizations.

It's ok Are these valid reasons and serious sources for you Likemav647 (talk) 00:19, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

They do not say that Portuguese is a world language. Please see Wikipedia's policy WP:No original research, which says Articles must not contain any new analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not clearly stated by the sources themselves. In this context, the conclusion which is not clearly stated by the sources themselves is that Portuguese is a world language. That is to say, you are engaging in original research, which is not allowed. TompaDompa (talk) 00:26, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Textbook: Ponto de Encontro: Portuguese as a World Language (2nd Edition) published by Pearson Education

ISBN-13: 978-0205782765 Likemav647 (talk) 01:09, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

That's a textbook for learning and teaching Portuguese that uses the collocation "world language" in the sense of second language. If you look at the sources used for the other languages listed here, you'll find that they are sources about the linguistic concept of world languages that discuss certain languages' status as a world language or not. Do you see the difference? TompaDompa (talk) 01:21, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

Hum... https://w3techs.com/technologies/history_overview/content_language/ms/y

https://books.google.com.br/books?id=xjaXi6VGwfUC&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&printsec=frontcover&pg=PT12&dq=supercentral+&source=gb_mobile_entity&ovdme=1&redir_esc=y#v=snippet&q=Portuguese&f=false (search portuguese)

"On the other hand, sea-bound languages spread by conquests overseas: English, French, Portuguese, Spanish. Consequently, these languages became widespread in areas settled by European colonisers and relegated the indigenous people and their languages to peripheral positions."

https://books.google.com/books?id=Ao2XIClUKd8C&q=de+swaan&pg=PA1

1-1.5 https://books.google.com.sg/books?hl=en&lr=&id=xjaXi6VGwfUC&oi=fnd&pg=PT7&dq=info:odu6uXJKmn4J:scholar.google.com/&ots=TUNwTX029V&sig=cA2D7hngqXxgdhbQzTUKrIYo_2A#v=onepage&q&f=true

Have I finally understood?..... Likemav647 (talk) 01:53, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

More https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/Langues/2vital_lnginter_acc.htm Likemav647 (talk) 02:06, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

I am inclined to agree that Portuguese does not quite have sufficient support to qualify. In the past, yes - one could probably argue that it used to be a world language, [but we could also say that about a few others].

It is misleading to state that Portuguese is "now the main language of the southern hemisphere" [ahead of English], because that is true only regarding the number of native speakers.

However, as suggested in the last thread I do still believe that some sort of "compromise" category should somehow be added [with appropriate wording, perhaps even without citing any sources] - also mentioning Mandarin and German. --DLMcN (talk) 05:48, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

@DLMcN: I stand by what I said back in January, namely that whatever we decide to do needs to be both internally consistent and based on the sources.

@Likemav647: No, but I think you might be getting there. Do you understand why the paragraph that says Portuguese thanks to Portugal's colonial conquests, Portuguese was the first language to be spoken on all five continents and is now the main language of the southern hemisphere. The main countries are Portugal, Brazil, Angola and Mozambique. is irrelevant to this article? I see that you added a mention of Portuguese being a supercentral language in Abram de Swaan's global language system. In looking that up, you may have noticed that there are several additional such languages that are not listed here (e.g. Japanese and Swahili)—did you think about why that might be (I note that you did not take the additional step of adding those languages as well)? The explanation is that while there is one scholar that equates being a supercentral language with being a world language—Mohamed Benrabah—that position is (going by the overall literature on the topic) an outlier in the field, and WP:Consensus has been not to add languages if that is the only source that designates them as world languages. See earlier discussion at e.g. Talk:World language/Archive 3#A summary of the sources located so far, and a suggestion. TompaDompa (talk) 18:17, 6 July 2024 (UTC)

in Abram de Swaan's global language system.[citation needed]

Citation: Introduction: the global language system 11 p.25

Library of Congress

401—dc21

2001036802

Typeset in 10 ½ on 12 pt Sabon

by Kolam Information Services Pvt. Ltd., Pondicherry, India

Printed in Great Britain by TJ International, Padstow, Cornwall

Italic Likemav647 (talk) 12:05, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Today, three or four

decades after independence, the former colonial languages, English,

French and Portuguese, still function throughout Africa; the linguistic

map does not look very different from the political map of, say, 1920.

Likemav647 (talk) 12:09, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Bold Likemav647 (talk) 12:11, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

That was rather a non sequitur that did not really address what I said. I'm removing Portuguese from the article for now, as WP:Consensus is opposed to its inclusion. While WP:Consensus can change, the WP:ONUS to establish a new consensus is on you as you are the one seeking to include disputed content. TompaDompa (talk) 20:34, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

J'ai inclus toutes les citations que ce foutu livre contient quant à l'influence de la langue portugaise à l'international, et tu te permets de forme arbitraire, de supprimer mon actualisation. Tu es vraiment de mauvaise foi. Il est dit que le portugais est la langue maternelle utilisée, et ce, largement, dans l'hémisphère sud. Si ce n'est pas une conséquence de son internationalisation, parlée dans les 5 continents, c'est quoi ? Qu'est-ce que fout le latin, c'est une langue morte. T'es claqué comme type, t'es fatigué. Likemav647 (talk) 21:28, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

WP:ENGLISHPLEASE. Here's the thing: you are arguing that Portuguese should be considered a world language, by pointing to evidence about the language that you think makes it a world language. Even if you were to persuade me such that I come to view Portuguese as a world language, that would not mean we could include it as a world language in this article. My view on the matter, or indeed any editor's, does not make any difference. What you need to do is demonstrate is that Portuguese is considered a world language by authoritative sources on the topic. This is the essence of Wikipedia's WP:Core content policy WP:No original research: the conclusion (Portuguese is a world language) needs to come from WP:Reliable sources, it is not enough for the underlying factual basis for the arguments (it is used by this number of people across these geographical territories, and so on) to come from such sources (as the policy says, original research includes any analysis or synthesis of published material that reaches or implies a conclusion not stated by the sources). TompaDompa (talk) 21:48, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

L'espagnol est parlé en Afrique par une importante communauté ? L'espagnol n'est pas parlé en Asie comme il n'est que parlé secondairement en Afrique dans un seul pays, la Guinée équatorial. Qui par ailleurs, parle également le français et le portugais. L'espagnol est seulement parlé en Amérique latine, il n'est aucunement pluri-continental. Il fait quoi dans la liste ? Le portugais est parlé en Amérique latine, en Afrique et légèrement en Asie (c'est mieux que rien, cf l'espagnol). Ça n'a aucun sens ce que tu me dis, ce que tu défends est faux... Likemav647 (talk) 23:12, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

Again, please use English in talk page discussions per our WP:Talk page guidelines. And again, it doesn't matter whether you or I or any other editor think Portuguese, or any other language, is a world language—what matters is what the sources think. As such, it is not meaningful to argue with me that it should be considered one—what would be meaningful is demonstrating that this is a mainstream viewpoint among WP:Reliable sources on the topic. TompaDompa (talk) 23:27, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

There are distortions between Spanish and indigenous languages. If these countries are not even completely in harmony according to the official language used, it is normal that a very small population is certainly not necessarily spoken English

With the exception of Brazil, Hispanic countries are divided into official, used and second languages. Portuguese is spoken natively by virtually all of Brazil.

This is not the case in Paraguay, for example. English has a privileged status as a second language, thanks to its global teaching!

This is the case in India, where nobody speaks English natively... Mother tongue is a significant factor in determining a country's literacy rate. Without the status of second language, English is well behind Spanish, which has almost half a million Spanish speakers (the language used, of course). There's a gap between the official language and with first language Likemav647 (talk) 11:04, 7 July 2024 (UTC)

LikeMav - First, it is important to always be polite in Wiki-discussions, and to avoid all personal criticism. [Or maybe my French is not good enough, and I have misinterpreted some of your words? - if so, I apologise].

Anyway, it may help to 'calm you down' if we take a close look and carefully consider some of the points you make, even if this does make me guilty of "Original Research" and even "Synthesis". But references can easily be found to confirm what I say. [In any event, as Tompa Dompa emphasises, a designated World Language does need to be supported by quoting specific, independent sources].

You wrote: "L'espagnol est seulement parlé en Amérique latine, il n'est aucunement pluri-continental".... OK, apart from Hispano-America and Spain - yes, there is very little else in the world where Spanish can claim any sort of presence: [e.g., a few 'bits' in Africa?]... It is, however, important In Europe because it is a very popular choice for retirees coming from countries further north, and for holiday-makers.

Portuguese is of course confined to a small corner of south-west Europe [although those^ facts about Spain are admittedly partly true of Portugal too].

In addition, Portuguese does indeed dominate one [large] country in South America, and it can boast a significant [although not really large] presence in Africa.... but apart from these^ three examples there is not much to mention ... > [Alright, it is one of the official languages of East Timor [an extremely small country in Asia/Australasia], but the role of Portuguese in Macau and western India is rapidly fading away].--DLMcN (talk) 12:27, 8 July 2024 (UTC)

Ne prenez pas ma patience, une de mes vertus pour de l'impolitesse ou mon objectivité pour de la mauvaise foi. J'accepte vos excuses, et c'est très agréable de voir que vous êtes capable d'assumer vos erreurs. Maintenant, permettez-moi de vous corriger, de vous rendre plus pertinent. "Quelques morceaux", un pays africain qui détient le français et le portugais en parallèle comme langues officielles. Ceuta, une région où l'arabe (macro-langue) y est parlé, puis, Melilla même chose. L'espagnol est insignifiant en Afrique, pour ne pas dire inexistant ! Ce qui concerne l'Europe, savez-vous que le castillan est une langue seconde en Galice ? Il est parlé en Galice une langue appelée le galego qui est intrinsèquement liée au portugais. Vous me parlez de retraités au nord... Vous voulez dire, pour que je comprenne, les retraités anglo-saxons qui résident au Portugal, plus principalement au sud, à la capitale, en Algarve. Ainsi que les travailleurs Portugais éparpillés dans toute l'Europe de l'ouest, une diaspora très forte en Suisse, Luxembourg, France, Belgique, Andorre, etc. Sur 600 000 habitants du Luxembourg 104 262 sont Portugais ! 12% de la communauté de la Suisse est portugaise. Vous êtes un malin ! Vous parlez de confinement du portugais, et je vous démontre la signification de la diaspora. Mais qu'en est-il du castillan en Europe ? Confiné ? L'ABC, une région des Pays-Bas, au Caraïbes, qui utilise une langue au lexique fortement influencé du portugais. L'Uruguay autrefois lusophone, qui communique en portugais le long de la frontière. Le Brésil qui est une république fédérative couvre 50% du continent sud-américain, ce sont 27 régions, 217 milliona de locuteurs natifs, il serait possible d'y implanter tous les pays du sous-continent, dans une, voire plusieurs régions du pays. Linguistiquement la même chose, le pays étant 100% lusophone (99,5-8%, ce qui n'est pas le cas de ses pays limitrophes) le portugais y est plus utilisé. En Afrique, le seul pays parlant majoritairement une langue européenne est l'Angola, avec 36% de la population ayant comme langue maternelle le portugais. C'est un sacré morceau où l'on ajoute 1 million de locuteurs lusophones de l'Afrique du Sud, 3,5 millions du Mozambique, 171 000 de la Guinea-Bissau. Les îles du Portugal comme les Açores, Madère, les îles sauvages (inhabitées) ont aux alentours des îles africaines qui utilisent toutes le portugais, c'est une importante langue véhiculaire en Afrique. Je n'ai pour l'instant insisté que sur la langue maternelle, en toute objectivité, on parle pas de miettes, de petits morceaux. Macao contient 2% de lusophones, le portugais y est la langue officielle et administrative, elle y est présente au côté du cantonnais, tout est traduit en portugais, les plaques, les routes, la carte. Goa en Inde, 20 000 lusophones, le Japon et ses habitants Brésiliens, le Timor-Leste 55% de la population parle le portugais comme langue maternelle. Ce n'est pas rien, c'est un exploit pour une langue latine, qui non seulement est la deuxième langue latine la plus utilisée derrière l'espagnol, mais la plus importante de l'hémisphère sud. Likemav647 (talk) 07:43, 9 July 2024 (UTC)

Brazil isn´t 50% of South America, the nine spanish speaking cuntries surpass Brazil in square kilometers if you add them; and in Guinea Eauqtorial 87% speak spanish and nobody

portuguese 2800:B20:111A:35F0:1974:B1C5:BB13:F024 (talk) 21:58, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

"Brazil, country of South America that occupies half the continent’s landmass. "Britannica https://www.britannica.com/place/Brazil Si, si. "Each ethnic group speaks its own language; among the most prominent of these languages are Fang and Bubi." Britannica https://www.britannica.com/place/Equatorial-Guinea/People

Brisax... Likemav647 (talk) 00:19, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

just add the square kilometers of each country that speak spanish in south amercia and you will see they surpass brazil, or should I do it to demonstrate it to your eyes? don´t be lazy and add that.

And 85% speak spanish in equatorial guinea

https://www.lingoda.com/blog/en/spanish-speaking-country-africa/#Languages-in-Equatorial-Guinea 2800:B20:111A:35F0:1974:B1C5:BB13:F024 (talk) 03:12, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Pour ce qui est des langues véhiculaires, on doit citer, outre le krio et le fang, quatre langues occidentales: l’espagnol, la «première» langue langue officielle du pays, le français, la «seconde» langue officielle depuis 1998, le portugais, la troisième langue officielle depuis 2011 et l’anglais, qui ne bénéficie d'aucun statut officiel, mais qui demeure une grande langue de communication internationale.

"On estime qu’environ 1500 Espagnols résident en Guinée équatoriale et que moins de 20 % peuvent communiquer en espagnol en tant que langue seconde"

https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/afrique/guinee_equatoriale.htm#:~:text=9000%20locuteurs)%20d'%C3%89quato%2D,pour%20d%C3%A9signer%20cette%20langue%20v%C3%A9hiculaire. Likemav647 (talk) 04:38, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Langues_en_Am%C3%A9rique_du_Sud Likemav647 (talk) 04:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

The most widely spoken languages throughout the continent of South America are Portuguese and Spanish. Over 50% of the population speaks Portuguese, but the number of Spanish speakers is close behind the number of Portuguese speakers. Portuguese is the official language of Brazil, while Spanish is the official language of most countries.

Other official languages with substantial number of speakers are:

Aymara in Bolivia and Peru

Guaraní in Bolivia and Paraguay

Quechua in Bolivia, Ecuador, and Peruhttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_South_America Likemav647 (talk) 04:52, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Brisé Likemav647 (talk) 13:19, 10 July 2024 (UTC)

LikeMav wrote: [despite being asked to please use just English !]: "Vous me parlez de retraités au nord..." ... "Mais qu'en est-il du castillan en Europe ? Confiné ?"

> Most, if not all scholars agree that an important parameter for deciding what might be called a "World Language" - is the number of people who use it as a second [or third] tongue in addition to their native one. And a fair number of retirees and holidaymakers in northern and central Europe have indeed chosen to study Spanish, but not nearly as many have opted to learn Portuguese.

2. There are some who might argue that the Canary Islands could be considered, geographically, to be a part of Africa - but I am happy to ignore them and to concede that Portuguese is more important than Spanish in that continent. [Morocco has of course been 'responsible' for squeezing Spanish out of most the area originally controlled by Polisario, and has perhaps been similarly indifferent in its northern region, which did once belong to Spain? ... but those facts remain, regardless of who may or may not be guilty]. Nevertheless, this is the only continent where Portuguese is substantially more significant than Spanish - but it still lies behind English, French and Arabic; [in Asia, the numbers are so small that it hardly makes sense to try and talk about Portuguese in that sort of context].

>>TompaD - Yes, of course we need to follow the "Wiki-rules" when editing its pages - but it is inevitable, when digesting the contents and perhaps even discussing them with others, that some of us will consider and ask what criteria may have led to the key statements made by the authors of the reliable sources ... and maybe even to wonder whether they are now 'out of date' [as I did with Russian !] ... It does sound, for example, as if it makes absolutely no sense to LikeMav that Spanish has been chosen here when Portuguese has not - so it seemed worth trying to highlight a few relevant facts. --DLMcN (talk) 13:43, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

Bonjour,

Je vous réponds par numérotation comme vous l'avez fait, cela vous permettra de ne pas vous perdre, chose qui arrive souvent, ma foi.

1. «Les fameux vacanciers et l'espagnol utilisé comme seconde langue»

Espagnol

L2 : 99 millions https://fr.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institut_Cervantes

Portugais

L2 : 40 millions https://archive.wikiwix.com/cache/index2.php?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ethnologue.com%2Flanguage%2Fpor#federation=archive.wikiwix.com&tab=url

Une différence de 60 millions de locuteurs se fait ressentir pour la LV2 entre l'espagnol et le portugais, il est important de prendre les informations qui suivent en considération The most widely spoken languages throughout the continent of South America are Portuguese and Spanish. Over 50% of the population speaks Portuguese, but the number of Spanish speakers is close behind the number of Portuguese speakers. Portuguese is the official language of Brazil, while Spanish is the official language of most countries. Likemav647 (talk) 15:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

...Other official languages with substantial number of speakers are:

Aymara in Bolivia and Peru

Guaraní in Bolivia and Paraguay

Quechua in Bolivia, Ecuador, and Peru Beaucoup de pays qui devraient parler comme langue native l'espagnol, ont pour langues maternelles des langues indigènes.

Je serais curieux de savoir combien de personnes apprennent l'espagnol comme seconde langue en excluant les pays cités ci-dessus.

2. «Les îles Canaries situées en Afrique»

Tous les jours, je me réveille et je me pose la même question : «Ai-je suffisamment vu ce qu'il y avait à voir ou il est possible de creuser plus profondément afin d'y trouver le pompon ?» Quand je crois avoir tout vu, il y a toujours une folie faisant surface, alors que je pensais avoir vu suffisamment d'absurdités, incroyable !

L'espagnol en Asie, c'est le néant, en Afrique... Un pays, d'accord, en parallèle avec plusieurs autres langues.

Le Russe, en Afrique inexistant, Amérique inexistant, il est concentré dans la Russie et le Kazakhstan.

L'arabe (macro-langue), inconnu en Amérique, en Asie, Europe, il fait quoi dans la liste ?

Le portugais est peu parlé en Asie, mais, il y est parlé. Le français en Asie ? L'espagnol ? L'arabe ?

Le portugais est même parlé en Océanie, qu'en est-il des autres langues ?

J'ai posté les sources plus haut.

Vous êtes des malins ! Likemav647 (talk) 15:32, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Likemav wrote: Je serais curieux de savoir combien de personnes apprennent l'espagnol comme seconde langue en excluant les pays cités ci-dessus.

>>

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Proportion_of_pupils_in_lower_secondary_education_learning_selected_foreign_languages,_2013_and_2021V1.png

....

https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?title=File:Proportion_of_pupils_in_upper_secondary_education_learning_selected_foreign_languages,_2021_(%25)_ET2023.png

....

https://blog.rosettastone.com/what-languages-are-spoken-in-brazil/ > Today, about 460,000 Brazilians speak Spanish, with the majority residing alongside the borders near Spanish-speaking countries. In recent years, Spanish has also been a popular foreign language to learn and has even become a mandatory subject in some schools in Rio de Janeiro and São Paulo.

....

https://www.britishcouncil.org/about/press/spanish-most-popular-level-language-schools-across-england-while-german-falls-behind > Spanish [is] the most popular A-level language, in schools across England

....

https://english.elpais.com/elpais/2019/07/11/inenglish/1562839181_437490.html# > Spanish has been the favored second language in countries such as the US and Brazil for decades ... [and] Spanish will become the second language of choice in the UK in 2020, beating French.

....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Languages_of_Germany > According to a 2020 analysis conducted by Pew Research Center using 2017 data from Eurostat, the most popular non-English foreign languages learned in German primary and secondary schools were French (15%), Spanish (5%) and Russian (1%), with others garnering less than 1% each.

....

https://blog.rosettastone.com/languages-spoken-in-france/ > France also values foreign language education from an early age. After all, bilingualism and multilingualism are practical in Europe. The languages that are most commonly taught in French schools are English, Spanish, Italian and German.

....

https://www.edweek.org/teaching-learning/how-much-foreign-language-is-being-taught-in-u-s-schools/2017/06#:~:text=Across%20the%20map%2C%20Romance%20languages%20are%20taught%20most,of%20the%20courses%20offered%20to%20secondary%20school%20students. > Across the map, Romance languages are taught most often in U.S. high schools, with 46 percent of all foreign language classes focusing on Spanish and another 21 percent on French.... Chinese, German, and Latin are the only other world languages that account for more than 5 percent of the courses offered to secondary school students.

....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_Jamaica > Secondary education - Students are exposed to a wide range of subjects, including Spanish and French as 2nd languages. --DLMcN (talk) 17:13, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Personne n'est bilingue au Brésil...

https://www.dynamiclanguage.com/exploring-the-languages-spoken-in-brazil-a-diverse-linguistic-landscape/#:~:text=Portuguese%3A%20The%20primary%20and%20official,of%20the%20population%20speaking%20it.

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/which-languages-spoken-brazil-ofer-tirosh

Il y a dans le meilleurs des cas, des personnes âgées parlant un dialecte allemand dans le sud, et encore. L'espagnol, impossible, le portunhol, oui.

C'est quoi ces sources des enfers ?

Concernant le second point :

https://www.marstranslation.com/blog/most-studied-languages-in-the-world

https://www.newsdle.com/blog/foreign-language-statistics

http://www.eurydice.org/portal/page/portal/Eurydice/showPresentation?pubid=049EN

https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/research-briefings/cbp-7388/

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/national-curriculum-in-england-languages-progammes-of-study/national-curriculum-in-england-languages-progammes-of-study

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_education_by_region

Bref, la mauvaise foi est innée chez certains Likemav647 (talk) 18:03, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Étudier ne signifie pas parler une langue couramment ou avoir comme deuxième langue celle-ci... D'où les 99 millions de locuteurs ayant pour deuxième langue l'espagnol. Les pays d'Amérique latine ont un certain nombre de locuteurs natifs de langues indigènes : https://www.axl.cefan.ulaval.ca/Langues/2vital_inter_espagnol.htm

La bolivie avec seulement 43% de locuteurs ayant l'espagnol comme langue maternelle, l'Équateur, le Pérou, le Paraguay avec 20% seulement ! Likemav647 (talk) 18:10, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:World_language#c-Likemav647-20240714181000-Likemav647-20240714180300

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portu%C3%B1ol Likemav647 (talk) 18:43, 14 July 2024 (UTC)