Talk:Wrexham

Pubs and community spaces

I have been discussing with IP user User talk:80.209.140.92‎ the inclusion or removal of Saith Seren, a pub and community centre. They have argued it should be removed from the article as it is not of significance.

Most town/city articles make reference to the nightlife, social spaces, and community venues in said town, and I don't see why Wrexham should omit such information either.

I note the tourism section already refers to other pubs as well as Saith Seren. I do not see any pressing need to omit this particular venue, especially considering there are others such as the Old Swan pub which is also not of any particular fame other than being a pub.

I have instead moved the group of pubs and venues (including Saith Seren) into a more suitable Venues and Centres section, as they are all not particularly tourist destinations.

I would request anyone looking to remove any of the aforementioned venues discuss it here first, however. Such deletions should be avoided unless there is particular good reason to exclude a venue. Otherwise it sets a risky precedent. I wouldn't want commercial competitors of local venues in the town coming here and deleting their competitors' details, for example, for their own gain.

Lager

Doesn't Wrexham Lager deserve a mention? --JBellis 21:19, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes- I've put a stub in for this but couldn't remember the date of closure. It needs somebody with better knowledge to fill in the gaps. Velela 11:14, 21 Mar 2005 (UTC)

History is too big

I have moved all history content to 'History of Wrexham' page. I think what needs to be done is the current history on the 'Wrexham' page should be brought down to a couple of paragraphs of history, for the last 200 years or so. Including Wrexham's borough status etc....

Churches

I think it is a bit misleading to descrbe St Giles as "Wrexham's main Church". I think "Wrexham's main Anglican church" would be better, as Wrexham also has a Roman Catholic Cathedral known as "Our Lady of Sorrows", or "St Mary's", which also has a large congregation, and is the main church of the Roman Catholic Diocese of Wrexham, which extends over much of North Wales.

Too negative!

Most of this artice sems to give a negative view of Wrexham (a lot of space is give over to the riots, far more than it needs). I think some parts need to be re-written.

I would agree, but we aren't trying to 'sell' Wrexham to anyone, just tell it like it is. Born Acorn 11:49, 6 January 2006 (UTC)

I agree with the point about negativity. It's not a matter of 'selling' Wrexham but informing the wider audience in an impartial way. A lot more has gone on in Wrexham over the years than those few days when a large fight broke out. Not even a proper riot, when compared with Toxteth or Brixton. Apau98 (talk) 18:21, 15 September 2008 (UTC)

Pictures

Does anyone have any pictures of Wrexham they'd be willing to upload? I could do it myself, but just checking.

Wrexham - town vs county borough

Please remember that this is an article on the town of Wrexham and should contain information about the town only. There is a separate article on the county borough of Wrexham which can include information on other parts of the county borough! -- Maelor  13:01, 13 July 2006 (UTC) More positive about this great town.

local areas

More information is needed here.

Population

The introduction currently states: "The town itself has a population of 43,000 and is thus the largest town in North Wales. The surrounding county borough has a population of 109,300." This can't be right - the council website states that the population of the entire county borough is (2004 est.) 130,200 extrapolated from the 2001 census figure of 128,476. If you go from the councils' ward map can someone say which wards actually comprise the town area? Brynffynnon? New Broughton? Coedpoeth? Then you can go to the census data and work out the actual town population. -- Arwel (talk) 21:28, 23 September 2006 (UTC)

I think this is resolved.... 63,087 is the Popluation of Wrexham' Urban area which was defined by the ONS in 2001. This is a 2001 and dosent seem to be available for 2005 estimates (although its prob about 68,000). I dont think the 40 odd thousand figure should be used as its no longer clear what is and isnt wrexham town, added to this Wrexham Council no longer use such a figure. The urban area is defined as the continuous urban sprawl. This includes much of new broughton etc but excludes 'villages' like Coedpoeth.

Annie Lennox

I would like to know where u found out that Annie Lennox lived in coedpoeth who in their right mind would want to live in that shithole. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 0555 (talk) 20:10, 28 March 2007 (UTC).

Coedpoeth isn't that bad. Neil ╦ 10:44, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

What the hell is wrong with Coedpoeth....

The whole of Wrexham is pretty hellish...

I don't believe this either. It is noticeable that the page on Annie Lennox does not mention those crucial, formative years in Coedpoeth at all. But then Bwlchgwyn was once going to house an International Elvis Presley Museum, so who knows... Judge Nutmeg 04:50, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I am Private Luke Roberts currently serving in basra and my mate stumbled across this whislt doing revision for college. what i want to no is how did u find my name and wot more do u no? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.202.46.50 (talk) 23:29, 24 September 2007 (UTC)

Has anyone got any more proof of Annie Lennox living in Coedpoeth, the web is full of articles that mention her name and "coedpoeth" but they all seem like copies of this wikipedia article. I would really like to know if there is any concrete evidence for this. 194.82.118.105 (talk) 14:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Merge in "City status"

Support. The article on Wrexham City Status is marked with a merge tag, yet there has been no discussion of that proposal here. I support that merge. The City Status article is quite short and does not provide enough context to stand alone. This (i.e., Wrexham) article has a section with the same name, where the city status discussion would nicely fit. Hult041956 19:56, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Hearing no objection, I did this merge today. Hult041956 (talk) 00:52, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

As of 20/05/2022, Wrexham is now an officially recognised city. Skibbzvonstarz (talk) 15:43, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Incorrect, please read the article (notably the note next to "market town"). On 20 May 2022, the UK Government announced that Wrexham is to gain city status, but it will be formally awarded to Wrexham later this year. City status is legally determined by the possession of a letters patent by the local council proving city status (places without this document cannot be described as cities). Wrexham council have not received such a legal document yet, and will likely do so in a few weeks to months. Only when Wrexham council receives the document proving city status (likely part of a ceremony) will Wrexham be described as a city on Wikipedia. Southend for example was announced to become a city in October 2021, on 18 February 2022 it was announced that then town would be awarded city status on 1 March 2022, and it was only from 1 March that Wikipedia described Southend as a city. Wrexham will follow a similar procedure, a date will likely be set in a few weeks/months when Wrexham will be formally awarded city status. This page is protected to prevent uncited edits to "city" for this reason. – DankJae (talk) 16:28, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Town Motto

Anybody ever noticed that the motto Labor Omnia Vincit, translated as Hard work overcomes all things, also means Labour Always Wins? Never a truer word spoken. I wonder which party introduced that motto? Judge Nutmeg (talk) 02:02, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

That depends on when the borough was given the motto in the grant of its coat of arms. It may have predated the first Labour controlled local council/first Labour MP for the town. Noting the date of the comment, it is now (since 2019) a Conservative constituency. I understand the translation of the motto - also that on the cap badge of the former Royal Pioneer Corps, a labour intensive corps of the army - as Labour can conquer all.Cloptonson (talk) 20:56, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Rejig

Hello editors,

Just a note that this article would benefit greatly from being more closely aligned to the WP:UKTOWNS guideline. There are alot of sprawling and conflicting sections in the article that would be better served following the standard layout.

Futhermore, inline with what has been stated in the past by other editors, I've removed any confusion with the Wrexham County Borough. Please be mindful that they are two different entities. -- Jza84 · (talk) 17:16, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

OK, this didn't generate much action, so I've done what I can. My edit was significant and want to make clear that this work was what I did. Much more work is needed. Hope that helps! -- Jza84 · (talk) 18:16, 12 February 2008 (UTC)

Cakeland

Any editors got problems with this? Remove if needed but id prefer to know, noone I know has put this up in my defence. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.242.165.16 (talk) 21:14, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Notable People

The list of 'notable' people includes some dubious entries. Wikipedia:Notability (people) includes guidelines as to what criteria to apply when deciding if someone is notable or not. I propose to carry out a major edit and re-write in prose, as suggested, and weeding out the lesser known people. K-Klass, for example. Also, I don't think Annie Lennox lived in Coedpoeth - all references to her doing that are derived from this article, it would seem. Apau98 (talk) 12:53, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Modern history

This section seems a little vague and it suggests that all the industries in Wrexham closed, with Brymbo being the last one. I'm looking for sources to improve this section - anyone have any informationto share? Apau98 (talk) 08:52, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Looking at the article Modern history, this is the wrong title too, it should be 'Contemporary History' Apau98 (talk) 09:01, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Welsh name

How is the Welsh name pronounced? /uˈrɛksam/?

--Twid (talk) 13:00, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

As far as I know, exactly the same as Wrexham. Wrecsam isn't a Welsh name, it's the spelling of Wrexham in Welsh, there being no 'x' in the Welsh alphabet.Apau98 (talk) 13:44, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

The S4C news readers do indeed pronounce it as Twid suggests. It isn't the spelling that is significant here because if a Welsh speaker pronounced "Wrexham" as if it was a Welsh word, it would still sound like /uˈrɛksam/.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   13:50, 19 January 2011 (UTC)

My understanding is that Twid's pronunciation would be 3 syllables (oo-REK-sam). While it's true that 'w' is a vowel in Welsh, it is sometimes pronounced as a consonant. In multi-syllable words such as "gwreiddiol" (2-syllables), the g-w-r forms a consonant cluster at the start. It's the same with Wrecsam; the w-r forms a consonant cluster (the similarity with gwr- words is so strong that Wrecsam was at times spelled Gwrecsam in 19th century Welsh). S4C announcers certainly reflect the popular usage and pronouce Wrecsam with 2 syllables [1] [2]. I'm not an expert on IPA but from the discussion on acute accents in Welsh_orthography#Diacritics, I think it should be something like /ˈwrɛksam/. Gareth (talk) 03:08, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

Gareth is right. W can represent a vowel or semivowel in Welsh. Here it's the semivowel, so [ˈwrɛksam] or more precisely [ˈrʷɛksam].Llusiduonbach (talk) 14:07, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

St Mary's Cathedral

Could the writer be more specific about the nature of "the relic" of St Richard Gwyn? His biographical article speaks of relics (in the plural) being held at the cathedral and in Llanidloes.Cloptonson (talk) 20:25, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Holt Castle

A reconstruction of Holt Castle in 1495

Would anyone object to including this video reconstruction of Holt Castle? Richard Nevell (talk) 16:33, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

This article is about the town of Wrexham, not the borough, which Holt is within. There is a page for Holt, would that not be the logical home for the video? SovalValtos (talk) 16:45, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Good point, that sounds sensible to me. Richard Nevell (talk) 17:07, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

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Demography =

Mentioning two minorities does not count as a section on demography! Any information about the native inhabitants? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.171.128.174 (talk) 09:24, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

If you have any more sourced information, feel free to add it to the article. Otherwise, are you suggesting we merge it into another section? Absolutelypuremilk (talk) 10:14, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

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Please revert recent edit

Recent edit https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wrexham&oldid=1089019793 is factually incorrect as per https://www.wrexham.gov.uk/service/political-management-council TheoCourt (talk) 13:00, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done – The website has not fully been updated, since the 2022 election on 5 May 2022 there have been 56 councillors increase from 52 in the 2017 election. Here is the list of the newly elected 56 councillors. Here is Wrexham Council source for election changes here and other sources for the change, here and here (they total to 56). Many Thanks - DankJae (talk) 13:11, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Got it, thanks! TheoCourt (talk) 15:20, 21 May 2022 (UTC)

Some proposed changes

As of the 20th May 2022, Wrexham is an officially recognised city. 15:48, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done – See reply to "Merge in City status" above. – DankJae (talk) 16:35, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 May 2022

Wrexham is now a city and the population is 80.000 Deltahot (talk) 08:09, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Cannolis (talk) 08:15, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

Population (again)

What should be stated as Wrexham's population?

The article currently uses the Wrexham built-up area statistic of ~65,000. However some sources (although this may not represent all sources) for the recent city status, [3] [4] [5] [6] [7] [8] use ~61-62,000 which is for the Wrexham built-up area subdivision (which excludes two other Wrexham BUA subdivisions; Rhostyllen and Bradley).

The article was in Oct 2003 created with a 130,000 figure but at the time also discussed the county borough. 40,000 was then added shortly later, becoming 43,000 in this 2005 edit. This 2007 edit, added a 68,000 urban area population, with 43,000 referred as the original/old town limits figure. This 2007 IP edit, removed the 43,000, but restored a few months later in this edit, but then removed in this 2008 edit. This 2014 edit, re-added the 61,000 figure, with it retained until this 2019 infobox edit, adding the county figure until a 2020 reversion adding 65,000, and largely has remained since. So past editors cannot really agree either.

A very old discussion above had an editor support the entire BUA figure, but stated "continuous urban sprawl" which technically excludes Rhostyllen and Bradley as they are not strictly connected to Wrexham per the ONS (there wouldn't be subdivisions).

So should the population remain at the 65,000 figure or be at 61,000? TLDR are Rhostyllen and Bradley part of Wrexham statistically? Wales.com uses 65,000, whereas Britannica, Wrexham.com and the Guardian uses ~42,000 for the "town", meaning only the four central communities. [9] [10] [11]. Leader newspaper quotes 42,000.[12]

I am personally leaning towards the 61,000 figure as it is the strictly contiguous area of Wrexham.

Alternatively maybe it can be worded or formatted to include all two/three? I have added a note and link to the simple BUA article I made to distinguish it better.

References

Many Thanks DankJae 02:45, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Boldly changed to ~61,000 due to more recent sources using the figure, and longevity in article history until some confusing bold edits changed it. DankJae 11:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

In light of the recent edit, when searching on ONS Build a custom area profile when searching for Wrexham BUA, it now gives a smaller area and figure of 44,800, which was used in the article in the past, but clearly defines Rhostyllen, Bradley, Gwersyllt and others as no longer Wrexham? Not sure how to cite an interactive application though. DankJae 10:39, 25 May 2023 (UTC)

For the 2021 census, the ONS reduced Wrexham's built-up area to 44,000, therefore the previous figures are defunct.[13] DankJae 00:58, 3 August 2023 (UTC)

If there are still BUA and BUASD statistics in the 2021 census (which now appears to actually only have BUA and urban area[14]) then both should be mentioned as well as the principal area. Given however it seems the 2021 census has dropped BUASDs I'd just mention the BUA and principal area population in the lead. Crouch, Swale (talk) 18:36, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

@Crouch, Swale, is there a non-citypopulation source? Cannot find the figures they given from ONS, so don't trust it or at least not publicly released. ONS only gives the current BUA (search it) (comparable to 2011 BUASD) with the 44,000 figure, so used that. It was also 40,000 ish in the 2001 census I think.

also the discussion I linked at talks was deleted (since reverted) if you were looking for that DankJae 20:57, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

@DankJae: The 2011 census was provided by NOMIS until not that long ago but now redirects you to the 2021 census. The 2001 census data is here if the link works. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:14, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

@Crouch, Swale, thanks so 2001 also used 60,000 ish, but now the ONS has hidden it for 2021, and probably shouldn't keep the older figure just to avoid the decrease. Had added a hatnote referencing the 2011 figure instead. Appears there is no 2021 "urban area" ONS source? Not sure if conglomerations are still gonna be made. So as a result, settled on 44,000.

In terms of the principal area population, not sure of its relevance here. It is always used specifically for the county borough not confused with the city. Doubt anyone would think the city/town/settlement whatever, is 135k strong. Like adding Conwy County Borough's population to the small town of Conwy? But if a source discusses them together may add them in context. Thanks DankJae 21:42, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

@DankJae: Yeah I'd just use the 2021 figures, the 2001 and 2011 figures aren't probably necessary as the most up to data date is generally best and given the changes in definitions would likely confuse readers.

The population of the prinicipal area may be useful, see Wikipedia:Separate articles for administrative divisions to settlements which I wrote and Dudley and Wakefield which mention the settlement and wider district population but indeed perhaps not necessary. Crouch, Swale (talk) 21:51, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

a city or the former town/city centre of the City of the County Borough of Wrexham?

There is currently an edit war involving I, @"saralouisewheeler", as well as @GhostInTheMachine. Both intepreting the Letters Patent under WP:PRIMARY, word-by-word.

Over whether this article is a "city" or merely a part (former town/city centre/settlement) of the "City of the County Borough of Wrexham".

A restart of a previous dispute, thought settled at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject UK geography/Archive 27#Is Wrexham legally a city?

SLW claims that there was a FOI stating that the Letters Patent should be taken literally and that it is "misinformation" to state the place is a city itself instead of the county borough being the city. Although provided no additional links to such sources.

So should the status quo remain, with Wrexham a city within a county borough having city status on its behalf. Or is Wrexham a former town/city centre/settlement within the City of the County Borough of Wrexham. Or even did Wrexham cease to exist in 2022 (as "city" apparently always refers to the county). Like if Wrexham is targeted, then shouldn't it apply to most cities in the UK where the status was also awarded to the district/borough and that has a separate article on Wikipedia from the settlement? Or is Wrexham unfortunately unique because it is also a county (borough). Other Welsh places were lucky that the city itself covered most of the county, but Wrexham (town whatever) accounts for merely 40% of the county.

These articles ideally shouldn't be merged until sources state Ruabon, Rhos, Llay, Rossett, and Trevor as just being part of (the city of) Wrexham, and "county borough" is phased out. But I am aware that many people conflate the two, like City of London, London and Greater London. maybe city status was a mistake. I am getting tired of this. DankJae 16:40, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

@"saralouisewheeler", be free to if you wish (my wiki email is at my userpage), but note I am aware that legally it is for Wrexham County Borough and that City Status is awarded to local authorities. Wrexham has no town council, so it was given to the county borough council. However, most sources call Wrexham (referencing what was the town) a city itself even if it technically isn't, and the council still use "county borough" as in their name. Common convention here is to also describe the settlement as one, in which the city status for the area/borough/county is likely done for. But started this discussion to clear things up as it has come up before and Wrexham has the more unfortunate legal situation (being legally a county but the place too small within it).

Please do not edit war further. Thanks DankJae 16:56, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

note this Wrexham.com article, there is clearly a debate in reality among this, but we should wait until that is decided somehow. (Still hasn't yet) Most sources call Wrexham itself a city for now, while also specify "county borough" for the villages. The alternative is more confusing for readers. DankJae 17:08, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

"saralouisewheeler" (talk) 18:05, 6 October 2024 (UTC)

Hi DankJae, I thought this was just a private conversation between us and I don't want my comments to appear here as content, including the one you cite above, which as you say is best sent to the council...which it has been. I'm going to delete my comments, please don't repost them. "saralouisewheeler" (talk) 06:17, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

@"saralouisewheeler", usually you can’t remove merely WP:REDACT, but I’ll accept WP:MUTUAL withdrawal (deleting) of both your and my comments except the one above discussing your wish to remove, and comments before and including my Wrexham.com comment. Sounds best? @"saralouisewheeler" DankJae 07:34, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

Yes please. "saralouisewheeler" (talk) 07:58, 7 October 2024 (UTC)

If SLW has removed her comments then maybe the dispute has been postponed. The situation reminds me a bit of Swansea, though Swansea forms a much larger part of its county/prinipal area. In most peoples' minds "Swansea" is the urban area of the City and County of Swansea and few people who holiday on the Gower would say they'd been camping in Swansea. Personally I'd prefer a separate article for the 'city' of Swansea. Similarly, Wrexham (with the cathedral etc.) is the 'de facto' city, even though Wrexham County Borough might be the 'de jura' city. I would say common sense needs applying, the legal situation can be described in the Wrexham article. Sionk (talk) 09:59, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

• A similar dispute over how to phrase the Colchester article ultimately led to the insertion into the WP:UKCITIES guideline of a section outlining how to handle city status. The general gist is that we refer to places like Wrexham as cities if reliable sources do, even if they technically aren't according to the letters patent.

The current lead of this article follows that guideline (which is admittedly only a suggestion) in describing Wrexham as a city but noting the legal situation in a footnote. Wrexham County Borough also follows the guideline in noting that the borough holds city status in its lead. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:36, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

I should note that describing Wrexham the settlement as a city is only correct according to the guideline if that is how the place is referred to in most reliable sources. It's just a question of checking them, really. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:42, 8 October 2024 (UTC)

It is not clear why I was accused of edit waring (I have edited the article just once this year and a few times over two years back). Renaming a user account and deleting parts of this conversion add to the confusion too. Never mind. Please can we draw a line about who said what and address any issues with the article itself...

---

What now needs to be done to clarify the issue of what is the city and what is not the city? Can I suggest that footnote A be reworded somewhat (one sentence with four clauses is tricky to parse). Then the explanation should be surfaced as part of the main text – footnotes are not visible enough — GhostInTheMachine ^{talk to me} 11:22, 9 October 2024 (UTC)

@GhostInTheMachine You did immediately restore the new SD stating Wrexham is a town in the City of Wrexham CB. But an uninvolved copyedit? If so, apologies. Not stating you edit warred, if it appears such, sorry.

May have worded your role too brief here, added you "as well as" just to ping you here, as you seemed to support the new claims.

The renaming and mutual deletion, is over privacy concerns of the new editor.

The issue of what is or is not a city seems to be more Wikipedia-wide relating to the UK. Not sure why if Wrexham is pointed out why most UK cities aren't either, as their Letters Patent also refer to a district too. But most sources describe the places all as such even if technically not, like how London technically isn't either. The UK does cities confusingly.

Would personally prefer no note, as Wrexham I think is the only one to have one, as it was added as a compromise. But understand it is a bit too long, I can probably remove my adding for government, although the note didn't do much to stop the claims it isn't a city.

Fine adding something to the body. I do plan to change and expand parts of the article at some point. DankJae 12:43, 9 October 2024 (UTC)