Talk:X Games SnoCross

Significant because it was the first game demoed on the iPad on Jan 27, 2010.

Significant because it was the first game demoed on the iPad on Jan 27, 2010. Drawcoder (talk) 12:10, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Drawcoder: I appreciate the keynote (which I watched live, and remembered seeing this game) but there doesn't appear to be sustained coverage over time, beyond a few reviews when it came out. Did this game get discontinued shortly after release, and when? If no reliable sources covered the discontinuation, then it seems non-notable.

Isn't there any article we could merge & redirect this to? DFlhb (talk) 23:40, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

It was renamed to 2XL Snocross but is still active. Lots of games don't have current coverage that are launched but this one has a key moment in handheld gaming history.

What spawned the urgency to remove something that has this type of history over games that don't? Drawcoder (talk) 01:35, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

This game fulfills WP:NOTOR Drawcoder (talk) 01:37, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

It needs to fulfill WP:PRODUCT and WP:GNG instead. I didn't find any secondary coverage of 2XL Snocross. Regardless, now that the PROD was challenged, I have zero plans to propose this article at WP:AFD or take any further action. Only added a tag to invite others to add more secondary sources, since anyone else can still take this article to WP:AFD, and it would need more sources to survive that. WP:PROD are pretty routine, and I only nominated it because I didn't find any other secondary coverage beyond the two already in here (AppSpy and PocketGamer). Just being in a keynote doesn't make it notable: it only appeared on screen for a few minutes, Forstall bragged about how advanced its graphics were, and the audience laughed mockingly (it looked like shit). We don't do moment-by-moment summaries for Apple keynotes, movie plots, TV shows, or anything else. DFlhb (talk) 01:47, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Main source: keynote

Secondary source: IGN that documented the keynote (not a review) Drawcoder (talk) 01:48, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

A keynote is a different thing than a movie plot, plus we do cover plot synopsis in movie articles.

The game is from 2010, the opinion you have of the video of it subjective. The video shown at the keynote is objective. Historically it is still the first game shown on the keynote iPad. That is true per WP:NOTOR. When WP:NOTABLE people like Steve Jobs or Scott Forstall cover something, that makes the thing they cover notable. Plus the organization X Games is notable as well as the event.Drawcoder (talk) 01:53, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Primary sources like YouTube videos, and non-independent sources like game reviews, generally do not constitute dueness. I invite you to read WP:NRV. Regarding Jobs & Forstall, I recommend this section: notability is not inherited; Forstall, Keynotes, the iPad, and Steve Jobs can be notable, but none of that makes this game notable.

Plus the organization X Games is notable as well as the event That's perfect! We should simply merge this article to X Games, instead of deleting it. See WP:CONRED DFlhb (talk) 02:01, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

WP:NRV is verified by the direct link to multiple sources.

The primary source is the Apple Keynote on Jan 27, 2010 a very notable event where they unveiled the iPad. The video is that keynote.

The secondary source is someone documenting the event at IGN, not a review but a keynote event coverage event based on the timeline of unveiling the iPad.

Additional notable events, not the main points, is that it was shown by notable people, it was the first shown, it was the one they used to highlight iPhone/iPad scaling bridging small and large device gaming. All of these events are important to mobile history and notable.

It could be added to a list of X Games games, and even list of games shown at the keynote, however that would be only addition to this specific content which fulfills the historical and source requirements for WP:NOTABILITY and WP:V so I recommend we remove the challenging template. Drawcoder (talk) 02:33, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I don't seem to be getting through. Notability isn't inherited, so the keynote is irrelevant. IGN doesn't count as significant coverage (only 2 sentences). Reviews (AppSpy and PocketGamer) are not considered independent. The other two links are a blog and a press release. So far, not a single source counts, when it comes to this game's notability.

I checked again, and still found no other sources, so now that it's been merged, I'll propose we redirect this page instead. DFlhb (talk) 02:50, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I have backed up everything with points that are valid. First time keynotes with first time events are notable. Not sure where this wouldn't be.

Is someone trying to take this name? This is a notable event in mobile history and this game was that game.

I took your advice and added it to the X-Games page as well under video games.

I appreciate your points, but I think you are wrong about this one. Drawcoder (talk) 02:59, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

We'll see; I've started a merge&redirect discussion, which I don't plan to participate in beyond starting it. Feel free to voice your opinion there. DFlhb (talk) 03:02, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I additionally added this info to the X-Games page under Video games.

I feel it is notable enough on it's own to warrant a page dedicated to the historical event. I like to track gaming history and this is a notable event to that world, every game first on new devices is. Many games have no significant event, this one does. I'd hate for mobile game history to just be a footnote on the event page. Drawcoder (talk) 03:05, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Clan Lord is a historic first. I just don't think "first game introduced at a keynote" counts as a real first. DFlhb (talk) 03:18, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

I disagree, games shown at the time were crucial in highlighting key new devices and new features. This one the bridge of iPhone to iPad as well as a first on some key Game Center features. I will probably elaborate more when time. I am into mobile history though. Maybe to someone that doesn't care about it wouldn't. Mobile history is about the devices, innovation and the content on them. All the other ESPN X Games games have their own pages as well but less historical signifigance. Snocross is also still a top 40 racing game on Apple. Drawcoder (talk) 03:23, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Also in a keynote that is a key moment in handheld gaming. Drawcoder (talk) 01:37, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

@Drawcoder: @DFlhb: Sparking up this discussion. As far as the idea that this is a historical event, we'd require a third-party source corroborating this notion. As it is, calling it historic and arguing in favor of the article being separate is original research. As far as the notion that Pocket Gamer and AppSpy are not considered independent, that's not true at all - I don't know where that notion came from. The only way they aren't independent is if the developer was involved in the review in any way (such as commissioning it or contributing to it). Also, I recommend that you, Drawcoder, make your opinion on the merge clear here. - Cukie Gherkin (talk) 05:47, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

This discussion is a fun throwback to when I was still incorrectly using terms like "secondary", "independent", and "indiscriminate" interchangeably. Fun. DFlhb (talk) 10:44, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

I got busy and couldn't participate much in the merge discussion. Unfortunately the solution leaves out important history of handheld gaming.

Additionally, the IGN keynote overview is a secondary source on the new one and was one here. Secondary source: IGN that documented the keynote (not a review).

Right down the Memory Hole I guess. Drawcoder (talk) 01:51, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Those were additional sources. The main source was an Apple Event iPad unveil on Jan 27, 2010. It is now just in X Games but does leave out some important info. Oh well. Drawcoder (talk) 01:32, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

I wish I had time to comment on the merge. I was told it wasn't going to be deleted based on the discussion above but apparently it has.

Additionally on this point

> The only way they aren't independent is if the developer was involved in the review in any way (such as commissioning it or contributing to it)

Secondary source: IGN that documented the keynote (not a review). It is also a secondary source on the new location at the bottom of X Games which is somewhat sad that is where the first game shown on an iPad in history resides. Drawcoder (talk) 01:56, 6 March 2024 (UTC)