Talk:Yachats, Oregon

Pronunciation

Please discuss how to spell the phonetic pronunciation here. Thanks. Katr67 (talk) 23:39, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The chief problem with the thrice inserted "YAH hots" is that it isn't clear how yah should be pronounced. Is it like yay (exclamation), yea (parliamentary answer), yeah (affirmative), or something else? Unless yaw is completely the wrong pronunciation, I suggest it replace yah. —EncMstr (talk) 23:56, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

It probably doesn't seem ambiguous to some. I pronounce "YAH" and "YAW" the same way. But I can see how one might be able to pronounce "YAH" more than one way, while "YAW" seems to have only one pronunciation. Since I can't parse IPA, I like having the phonetic pronunciation too, but whatever we decide, it would help to add the correct IPA code to end any ambiguity. What's most important is that people know it's not pronounced "yeah-CHATS" or whatever. Katr67 (talk) 02:56, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I think the first vowel in "Yachats" should rhyme with the "a" in "father" rather than the "a" in "paw." To me there is a distinct difference. I find it more difficult to pronounce "YAW" as the first syllable of this name. I surveyed ten other residents of Yachats and all of them rhyme the first "a" with "father." I'm not sure how this should be indicated if "YAH" is not acceptable. The American Heritage Dictionary uses an "a" with an umlaut over it for the sound I am proposing, whereas the IPA code is an "a:". An "o" with a caret (hat) over it symbolizes the vowel sound of "paw" in the dictionary, and the IPA code is a backward "c". I think "YAW" is wrong, but if that's the closest we can come, let's go with it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Crankelwitz (talk • contribs) 06:46, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. To me the a in father and paw is the same sound. I have a neutral Oregon accent and am mostly surrounded by the same. What other words have the same sound? Perhaps it is influenced by some accent?, though I don't distinctly remember anything unusual from dozens of people I've met in Yachats. —EncMstr (talk) 07:02, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Other examples of the "father kind of a" are "arm," "palm," and "what." Also, in the last vowel sound of words like "pizza." The "paw sound" is found in words like bought and in many words ending with "aw" such as "law." The La De Da Parade held in Yachats each July 4th ordinary uses the "father-like a" for both "La" and "Da" unless the speaker says "Law De Daw" to show contempt. But I think we are spending much too much time on this and should simply use "YAW" in the article. I've made that change. Thanks. Crankelwitz (talk) 21:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

IPA is basic to WP. If both vowels are pronounced fully (that is, the don't become slurred to a schwa), then they should both be ɑː. In respelling, we typically use AH for this vowel. There won't be any confusion if we link to a key.

Done, assuming the two vowels are the same. If you still don't like "AH", we can write "YAA-haats", which is also supported by the key. kwami (talk) 15:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Note to the other folks: I've seen Kwamikagami do a lot of IP work, so I asked him/her to come take a look at the page. I hope that helps settle things. Katr67 (talk) 17:12, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Climate Chart

I need help with the Climate Chart on the "Yachats, Oregon" site. Some of the temperature bars overlap the rainfall bars. This looks sloppy and it makes some of the temperature values hard to read. I can't figure out how to lift the temperature scale to eliminate the overlap. Please help! Crankelwitz (talk) 21:48, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

The problem is in the column templates—for example {{Climate chart/fahrenheit column i}} for Fahrenheit—where it uses two vertical offsets (hard coded as 4.44em and 2.94em) to separate temperature from precipitation. Apparently the climate box is being used mostly in dry climates. It looks tedious to fix—at least the ideas I've had so far. —EncMstr (talk) 22:31, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. If you come across a less tedious solution, please keep the Yachats site in mind. Crankelwitz (talk) 00:44, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

External Links

Can the External Links include a link to the site of the Yachats Chamber of Commerce? I have a feeling this might be considered a link to a commercial site so I'm hesitant to add it, although I've noted C of C links in the articles of other cities. Crankelwitz (talk) 22:04, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

That should be fine. —EncMstr (talk) 22:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, as far as what other articles have, read this for why that's not always a good reason to argue for something's inclusion. That said, we've had a couple lengthy discussions elsewhere and seem to have reached a consensus that CofC links are OK. Previously this article had been edited by a user, Yachats Chamber, who added the link, which I reverted along with several edits that introduced a non-neutral POV and content more suited to a tourism brochure. If you had added it I wouldn't have reverted it, but thanks for asking first!

As a side note, I'd say the recent edits to this article are a textbook example of the right way to edit (bold-revert-discuss) by Crankelwitz, vs. the wrong way to edit (trying to use Wikipedia to push a point of view and promote something) by the I'm sure good-but-unfamiliar-with Wikipedia folks of Yachats Chamber. So thanks for that. Katr67 (talk) 23:00, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Upload of Photo

I have a question about how I should handle an 1892 photo (unknown photographer). I have bought the right to use this on Wikipedia from a county historical society. They ask only that I use a specific credit line to indicate where the photo came from. Should I upload this as a photo that I have obtained from someone else? Is the credit line for the historical society entered as the source or as the author? I'm confused about which license is appropriate in this case. Thanks. Crankelwitz (talk) 09:13, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind. I believe I've figured out the answers to these questions. Crankelwitz (talk) 08:35, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

An offer

Hi Crankelwitz. Katr67 sent me a note today asking if I'd mind taking a look at the Yachats article and perhaps making some suggestions or doing some copyediting. I said, "Sure". Looking over the page, I instantly see a lot of things to like and a fair number of things that I think could be improved. When I first became a Wikipedian almost exactly two years ago, I did much more copyediting that I do today. Rather than copyediting whole articles, I've gravitated toward doing peer reviews, which are not as rigorous as academic peer reviews but are based on the same idea. You can see more about these at WP:PR. One of the things about peer reviewing that I like is that it allows me to make suggestions, many of them based on the Manual of Style and some based on things I have picked up here and there, and it allows the main contributor to an article to accept or reject my suggestions or to ask questions or to start a conversation about an area of disagreement. The first thing I thought of when I glanced at the Yachats article for the first time was that you might never have heard of WikiProject Cities. It's one of many projects (groups of editors working together on subjects of common interest) that have produced guidelines for articles about those interests. Although the guidelines say that the order of the sections in a city article is up to the main contributors, they are strongly encouraged "to at least begin with the lead/infobox, followed by history, geography, demographics, and economy, since these sections have some good basic information that might be sought after by readers first." The complete U.S. city guidelines live at WP:USCITY. Anyway, if you want me to, I'd be happy to review the article and post some of my other thoughts on this talk page. I'm going to be pretty busy tomorrow (Saturday), but I should be able to get to it either Saturday night or Sunday. If you want me to proceed, just post a reply here below this note. P.S. A solution to the climate chart problem might be to use a different chart. The only one I'm truly familiar with is the type used in the Hillsboro article. Finetooth (talk) 05:35, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for offering to help. I'm probably not going to be able to return to this task until late in June, so there isn't any need to hurry on my account. But I appreciate any help you can give me and will follow any guidance you can provide, once I can start working on this article again. Thanks. Crankelwitz (talk) 08:03, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

OK. I plunged ahead this evening with some copyediting based on guidelines in the Manual of Style (MOS), especially MOS:BOLD and MOS:IMAGES. Using {{convert}}, I added templates to convert unconverted imperial measures to metric. These not only do the math but use the spellings and abbreviations suggested by the MOS. I turned the bullet lists into straight prose, something also recommended by the MOS. I'll return tomorrow and see what I can do about the embedded links to external sites. The MOS says never to use them in the main text, but it might be possible to replace at least some of them with in-line citations. Finetooth (talk) 04:27, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Here's a short list of suggestions for further improving an interesting and well-illustrated article:

• Remove the rest of the embedded links that go from the main text to external sites. I removed a half-dozen or so, moving some to the "External links" section, making red links to possible future Wikipedia articles for others, or in the case of the lantern trees (which stumped me), just deleting. All of the rest of the embedded external links need to be removed and dealt with one way or another.
• A good rule of thumb about citing sources is to provide a citation for each set of statistics, each claim that might reasonably be questioned, each direct quotation, and each paragraph. The embedded links to external sites can't substitute for in-line citations.
• Quite a few of the citations are incomplete. If the information is available, the "cite web" citations should include author, title, publisher, date of publication, url, and retrieval date. I added information to citation 5 as an example.
• I agree with User:Aboutmovies that the existing article leans too heavily towards tourist attractions. You might consider expansion as a way to achieve a better balance. Areas for possible expansion include geology, education, government, and infrastructure. Where do Yachats kids go to school? Where is the nearest hospital? Does Yachats have its own municipal water supply? Aside from tourism and logging, how do people in Yachats earn a living? Does Yachats have a tsunami evacuation plan? Does Yachats have a newspaper or a low-power radio station or any other communications medium? Also, you might shorten the "Other activities and events" section. Things like pancake feeds and a rubber-ducks-for-kids race might be a bit too much. Another kind of thing to look for is biased material like "This great music festival has graced Yachats annually since 1981." The "great" and "graced" are boosterish rather than neutral. Perhaps the whole "Other activities" section could be compressed to a single paragraph without damaging the article.
• The ideal lead of a Wikipedia article is a summary or abstract of the rest of the article. It should not include material that is not developed in the main text sections, and it should include at least a mention of the main ideas in those sections. The existing lead is more like an introductory paragraph than a true lead. WP:LEAD has a more complete explanation.
• I hope these suggestions prove useful. If I can be of further help, just let me know. Finetooth (talk) 23:57, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

Assessment

This is too focused on being a visitor's guide and has too many formatting issues to make it to B class. It is an improvement over the older versions, but needs work to get to B class. Aboutmovies (talk) 07:04, 6 June 2009 (UTC)

Economy

Of the five top employers listed for Yachats, three no longer exist. Wouldn't it be less misleading to say something like, "As of 2002, two of Yachats's largest employers were the Adobe Resort Hotel and the Landmark Restaurant and Lounge."? By the way, I would like to change the possessive of Yachats from Yachats' to Yachats's throughout the article. Please see W. Strunk and E.B. White, The Elements of Style, page 1, for my justification for doing this. Thanks. Crankelwitz (talk) 09:37, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

That's a good wording change in the economy section. If you're affiliated with the CoC, perhaps you can come up with more recent (and citable) figures? As for the possessive, silence does not equal agreement. :) (Note that the Wikipedia process is slow) Anyway, we don't go with Strunk and White here usually (many folks think it's becoming dated). The guidelines we use are: Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Possessives and the Chicago Manual of Style. Chicago's take on the matter is summarized here: Apostrophe#Singular nouns ending with an "s" or "z" sound. As you can see, either style is acceptable. Generally, on Wikipedia, if the style is consistent throughout an article, and the MOS says you can choose more than one style, it's discouraged to change an article to one's preferred style. Personally, when I've worked as a paid copyeditor, the form Yachats' would be correct. And I personally don't like the form Yachats's as it looks and sounds (per the above section: "difficult or awkward to pronounce with an added sibilant") terrible. But that's just my opinion and isn't backed up by the MOS. So I won't revert your changes, but I also don't agree. I'm assuming that the preferred form in Yachats itself is "Yachats's"? Does the city government have a style guide? Because I would certainly defer to that. I hope that explains. Katr67 (talk) 18:26, 30 June 2009 (UTC)

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A "range"?

The lede gives the Siletz derivation of the name, then states "There is a range of differing etymologies, however" . . . then proceeds to give only one other example.

If there is only one other etymology, that is not a "range", it's simply an alternate etymology. If there is, indeed, a range of these, then more than one alternate example should be given -- at least two. Otherwise "range" should simply be "alternate". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.95.43.253 (talk) 01:34, 9 February 2023 (UTC)