Talk:Yakiv Holovatsky

Triad

In notes you added is written that Yakiv was Muschphile, but no word that Triad was pro-Russian. So why you always call Ruthenian Triad as pro-Russian, even if you cannot proof this normally? --MiskoGe (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 08:49, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

• Yakub Holovatsky wrote (sic! I quote his text in the Original): «Шашкевич познакомил меня с Иваном Вагилевичем, моим коллегою на первом году философии, и с тех пор мы стали сердечнейшими друзьями. Мы постоянно, встречаясь дома, в аудиториях, на прогулках, всюду мы втроем говорили, толковали, спорили, читали, критиковали, рассуждали о литературе, народности, истории, политике и пр., почти всегда мы говорили по-русски, так что коллеги называли нас в насмешку «русская тройца» [Translation: Almost always we spoke Russian, that's why our former colleagues called us the Russian Triad (Ruthenian Triad)]. Из сбереженных грошей я покупал книжки преимущественно русские. Я купил во Львове польско-русскую грамматику Гродзицкого, «Лиру» Державина, изд[анную] в Вильне. Больше нельзя было найти во Львове, и я выписал «Историю» Бантыш-Каменского (три тома), Котляревского «Энеиду» — три книги, Кулжинского «Русская деревня» и др. При том я приобрел в польском переводе поэмы Пушкина, изд[анные] в Вильне, и «Историю России» Кайданова (два тома) за невозможностью получить их в подлиннике». Best regards, Ушкуйник (talk) 16:22, 25 April 2019 (UTC)

However, by Kotliarevsky language of his Aeneid is Little Russian (and it differs from even that time Russian). Also they speak on Galician local dialect (by W. Osadczy), not yazychiye (язычие) which was spoken by Muscophiles of that time, nor Russian in modern sense. Also in their (Triad) works i did not found any signs of Muscophily, only researches of Ruthenian folklore in Galicia. So under "русский" they considered Ruthenian in broad sense (in Russian there is no difference in word to describe Ruthenian and Russian), so not only as Russian, but Ukrainian and Belarusian as well (in some cases only as Galician Ruthenian). --MiskoGe (talk) 21:27, 6 May 2019 (UTC)

Ruthenian Triad

First of all, the Ruthenian Triad was a literary group, not a political one. Secondly, its members were also Markiyan Shashkevych and Ivan Vahylevych, who, unlike Yakiv, did not belong to Galician Russophiles, and therefore the whole group cannot be called pro-Russian (moreover, in the sense of politics instead of literature!). Thirdly (this is more about lexicology than the article itself), the name "Руська трійця" or "Русская троица" refers to Rus' ancestry of Galician people, not to Russia (російська, российская). --M. Humeniuk (talk) 20:45, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 27 November 2023

Yakub Holovatsky → Yakiv Holovatsky – WP:COMMONNAME, per Google Ngram.[1]  —Michael Z. 17:06, 27 November 2023 (UTC) — Relisting. Bensci54 (talk) 17:27, 4 December 2023 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be "Yakov Holovatsky", since he signed his books that way? (German book, Chruch Slavonic, and Russian) Marcelus (talk) 12:09, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Well. 1) Obviously, none of those says Yakov Holovatsky. 2) Those aren’t his signatures; they are his name written by publishers in foreign languages. 3) The guideline says in part, “Wikipedia does not necessarily use the subject's "official" name as an article title; it generally prefers the name that is most commonly used (as determined by its prevalence in a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources) as such names will usually best fit the five criteria listed above.”

I suggest you review and understand the whole guideline to help you participate constructively in discussions about article titles.  —Michael Z. 15:55, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

By the way, the books give the author’s name as Jakow Fiodorowitsch Golowatzkij in German, Ꙗ҇́ковомъ Ѳ. Головацкимъ in Church Slavonic, and Яковомъ Головацкимъ, in Rusyn (a.k.a. Ruthenian), not Russian.  —Michael Z. 17:00, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I'm well aware of the guidelines; I just checked how he signed his books, and he never used the name "Yakiv" as you are proposing. Marcelus (talk) 18:34, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

Well is there anything in WP:TITLE or NCP that says we should consider what he called himself in those languages?  —Michael Z. 19:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)

I am closing this as moved per Michael's reasoning and WP:UKR general transliteration. WP:UKR guideline regarding a person's own preference only applies to living people. The sources also support Yakiv. Bensci54 (talk) 18:10, 11 December 2023 (UTC) (closed by non-admin page mover)

No worries, I wasn't opposing the move, I just like to check sources in cases like this, in order to make more educated choice Marcelus (talk) 20:45, 11 December 2023 (UTC)