Talk:Yasen-class submarine

KLUB system for Yasen not likely

The KLUB family of weapons, all nomenclature ending in "E", is an export variant. Russia will not arm its own submarines with export version of weapons systems.Федоров (talk) 12:00, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Graney ??

Unable to find an authoritative reference ascribing "Graney" as a legitimate class designator for the Project 885 "Yasen" submarine design, lead ship Severodvinsk. The Russian design covername is Yasen and the normal western class designator would be Severodvinsk classФедоров (talk) 17:39, 27 November 2009 (UTC)

Having seen the article reference being returned to "Graney" performed exhaustive searches to attempt confirmation. Unable to find ANY authoritative confirmation that "GRANEY" is, in fact, a NATO name for the as yet unlaunched "Severodvinsk" submarine. Further, exhaustive searches in the Russian language internet space did NOT turn up any citations to authoritatively confirm that the "Severodvinsk" submarine is named "Graney" in any variant usage. The ONLY authoritative and legitimate references are: Project/Design 885, "Yasen", and lead ship name "Severodvinsk". Use of "Graney" as a NATO class name by the Federation of American Scientists (FAS) or by the Global Security Organization has no citation of authoritative sources to confirm that "Graney" is, in fact, a legitimate NATO name for the submarine design whose lead ship is the "Severodvinsk". In the ABSENCE of authoritative confirmation, the Wiki article should more correctly revert to the English language convention of naming the ship class using the name of the lead unit of class. In this case the Project/Design 885 "Yasen" should the "Severodvinsk Class" in the English language Wikipedia.Федоров (talk) 03:53, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I appreciate your concern, but the article name doesn't have to be the "legitimate NATO name" - it merely needs to be the WP:COMMONNAME of the class in WP:ENGLISH. As far as I can tell, that seems to be Graney/Granay. I'm not sure NATO ever publishes its codenames on a handy "authoritative" website, but if WP:RS like Defense News refer to Graney as the NATO name then that's good enough for me. It can be worth poking around site:.gov to see what the US military establishment uses - when discussing what became the Virginias in the late 1990s they seem to have referred to it as the Severodvinsk class, but I couldn't find anything more recent than that. I accept that it's not ideal, I guess the naming will "harden" as the class is actually deployed (at long last!) but for now I'd go with Graney as per Defense News and similar sources. Just wait until people decide that the Kazan represents a distinct class from the Severodvinsk!!!! :-) 86.31.160.107 (talk) 19:38, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

• Goebbels' propaganda was "common usage" but still was about as wrong as could be.

Again, I ask for AUTHORITATIVE definition or designation and not UNTHINKING REPETITION by whatever sources might be out there. COMMON USAGE by a community that does not admit it's own unsubstantiated inventions is not worth much. Regarding the "Virginias" as mentioned above, Virginia Class is an actual U.S. submarine class. The Virginia Class was NEVER named the Severodvinsk - a yet to be launched Russian nuclear-powered multi-purpose attack submarine.Федоров (talk) 22:57, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

Authoritative definition is not necessary, since it doesn't matter what the authorities, it only matters what most people call it when they talk about it. WP:COMMONNAME. And your use of Nazi scare tactics is very WP:PA violating. 76.66.195.196 (talk) 09:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

• • Your reply only continues to confirm my assertion that WIKIPEDIA appear unconcerned with actual FACT and TRUTH but only strives to reflect "common understanding". Unfortunately I thought that the purpose of a "free encyclopedia" was to seek the TRUTH by providing a forum for a critical exchange that would result in the truth winning out. Your comment asserts that whatever is the seeming majority opinion is the truth. My Goebbels example was a clear and objective way to illustrate the perniciousness of that line of thinking.
  • I wonder what any of the WIKIPEDIA "watchdogs" reviewing this article and this discussion think regarding this essential issue of "truth" or "common understanding". even if wrong, being the ultimate value in addressing a WIKIPEDIA entry.Moryak (talk) 19:54, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

74.96.204.155 has added Graney as the official Nato name. Should this stay? Walle83 (talk) 23:09, 30 December 2010 (UTC)

I reverted this and also removed the note about it being called the Severodvinsk class. What I did was

• Google all of .mil for Graney submarine. Most of the 10 hits are for people named Graney. The one that was not was a page of news clippings (see the next bullet). Conclusion. The U.S. military does not use "Graney" at all. Given 74.96.204.155 provided no source it's unlikely it's a NATO term.
• Google all of .mil for Severodvinsk Yasen. This returned two hits. The first was the page of news clippings. That provided a URL for their source which states "In 2009, the Russian Navy will receive the first nuclear-powered attack submarine of the Project 885 Yasen (Graney) class, named Severodvinsk." I'll consider this a non-official source but reliable that "Graney" is an alternate name for some people and has been sinnce mid-2008. The second hit was a large PDF published in July 2010 by the U.S. Army's Strategic Studies Institute. Buried on page 349 is "one nuclear attack submarine (the Severodvinsk, a Yasen’ class, project 855),".

I'm wondering if we are doing something wrong in the spelling as I was surprised the second search got got two hits. There are 3000+ hits on .mil for "Severodvinsk" as that's the name of a port with a large navy yard. A search of .mil for Yasen gets nine hits. Two of those I just covered and the others are all because of people named Yasen. Searching NATO for Yasen and Graney returned no relevant hits but Severodvinsk submarine finds one document that says "The keel of the first of the fourth-generation attack submarines, the Severodvinsk class, was laid down in late 1993." So, in 2002 someone at the Norwegian Institute of International Affairs called it the Severodvinsk class...

Summary: this sure is a stealth project given the lack of information! --Marc Kupper|talk 03:33, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

I added Severodvinsk as one of the names used for this class of submarine based on the Norwegian Institute publication. I did a search on nato.int for Akula and then Alfa but was unable to locate a table of submarine classes. Doing the same on .mil found plenty of stuff but nothing that's enlightening. For example, this April-2009 report some charts but after "improved Akula" is "4th GEN SSN" and not a named class. I'd go with user Федоров's statement above that Project/Design 885, "Yasen", and lead ship name "Severodvinsk" are official. In terms of Wikipedia, I would still include the unofficial names "Graney" and "Severodvinsk class" as they are being used in seemingly serious publications.

There's this which claims "Project 885 Yasen (NATO code name Graney) class nuclear-powered multipurpose attack submarine." I'd want to ask the author of that document for the source for "NATO code name Graney." This chart claims to be of NATO code names and it has "SEVERODVINSK Class: Nuclear powered fleet submarines (SSN); service designation "Project 885"; could be later redesignated 'C....' class (?); No. 1 named "Severodvinsk"; under construction;" --Marc Kupper|talk 06:58, 1 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for continuing to confirm that there is no OFFICIAL NATO use of the class name GRANEY. YASEN is a legitimate Russian covername for the design of a new class of nuclear-powered attack submarines the first of which is named "SEVERODVINSK". The cited Norwegian source merely followed long-standing convention in naming the new class of submarine by the name of the first ship of the class, hence Severodvinsk Class. As previously stated in this discussion with regard to "Graney", the repetition of bad information neither makes it good or accurate.Федоров (talk) 09:31, 3 January 2011 (UTC)

Crew size

The Russian Wikipedia says crew size is between 85 and 93 according to various sources. Of them, 30 are commissioned officers. What is the source for the claimed 50 crew size? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.229.112.163 (talk) 07:51, 21 July 2010 (UTC)

No production

According to this article[1]; this class will not enter large scale production, but will, like the SeaWolf class, be of limited production. 76.66.195.196 (talk) 09:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Anything else would be very suprising If you look at the russian military budget. Russia cant afford any large scale productions.Walle83 (talk) 14:42, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

• The "limited" production run is expected to be ~8 units (first unit plus seven series production units). Source of this information is VADM Burtsev, First Deputy Chief of Staff of the Russian Navy and the navy's senior submarine officer. I would strongly suspect that he is much better informed on the current status of the construction program than are the sources cited above.Moryak (talk) 15:02, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Yes, he would be - but that doesn't mean he's telling the truth. Bluster is one thing, physical building is another. 104.169.27.100 (talk) 00:28, 29 April 2017 (UTC)

Quietest claim

I just added a sentence to the article about the Yasen being the quietest of all nuclear submarines but then revised that to be the quietest of contemporaneous Russian and Chinese nuclear submarines. My source was a chart on page 22 (page 25 of the PDF) of http://www.fas.org/irp/agency/oni/pla-navy.pdf which is a Office of Naval Intelligence (ONI) report. I believe "contemporaneous Russian and Chinese submarines" is accurate. Unfortunately, the ONI report did not explain the chart I'm using as a source and the why they picked the boats listed. Here are the boats they had on the chart from noisiest to quietest.

• Xia SSN (China)
• Han SSN (China)
• Shang SSN (China)
• Jin SSBN (China)
• Delta III SSBN (Russia)
• Victor III SSN (Russia)
• Type 095 SSN (2015) (China)
• Akula SSN (Russia)
• Oscar II SSGN (Russia)
• Akula II SSN (Russia)
• Dolgorukiy SSNB (Russia)
• Severodvinsk SSN (Russia)

--Marc Kupper|talk 11:55, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

• • Off topic but if the Chinese Xia class is less quiet then the Han class shouldnt the Jin class then be less quiet then the Shang? Both Xia and Jin are enlarget missile version of the SSN classes. And how can they know today how quiet the future Type-095 SSN will be? Also where is the Delta IV class? As you say the list needs additional sources and does not feel complete.Walle83 (talk) 16:16, 6 December 2010 (UTC)

The Type 095 submarine article explains how quiet it should be and why. Agreed on the rest of your comment. I can't think of a clean way to word something about the noise level in the article. Essentially it's "The Office of Naval Intelligence seems to have picked several random Russian and Chinese submarines and from that list designated the Yasen/Severodvinsk class as the quietest. They did this in a report about the Chinese Navy and two years before the first Yasen class boat will be commissioned." :-) --Marc Kupper|talk 02:33, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

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Random quote in intro?

"According to one of the U.S. Navy’s top submarine officers Rear Adm. Dave Johnson, Naval Sea Systems Command’s program executive officer (PEO) submarines, “We’ll be facing tough potential opponents. One only has to look at the Severodvinsk, Russia’s version of a nuclear guided missile submarine (SSGN). I am so impressed with this ship that I had Carderock build a model from unclassified data.”[17]" Not really relevant, not sure why it's there...

Please sign your comments with four tildas (~ ~ ~ ~); that said, the material is very relevant - this is a comment from someone in the top tier of a U.S. naval submarine command. 50.111.0.100 (talk) 01:51, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Kazan updated

According to this (https://www.rt.com/russia/523248-nuclear-submarine-nothern-fleet/) the Kasan it's an updated class Yasen-M. Probably someone want to check this and update the article. 200.78.196.226 (talk) 23:41, 8 May 2021 (UTC)

Tsirkon missile tests Oct 2021

The submarine SEVERODVINSK conducted two live fire launches of the Tsirkon hypersonic missile from the White Sea:

04 October 2021: According to the Russian Ministry of Defence, the 11th Submarine Division’s Yasen Class attack submarine SEVERODVINSK (pen. 840) conducted two live Tsirkon hypersonic missile launches from the White Sea hitting a target in the Barents Sea. The first launch was conducted from the surface of the White Sea, while the second was according to the Russian Ministry of Defence conducted while the SEVERODVINSK was submerged at a depth of 40 metres.

A TASS piece published on 29 September 2021 that test launches from surface vessels and land-based launchers had been completed, with some ten launches being performed

References