Talk:Yoram Harth

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Does anyone agrees that it doesn't look like an admetstisment anymore ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.52.45.246 (talk) 13:34, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Not yet. Someone needs to get rid of the citation overkill. Go through each statement and pick one or two of the highest quality sources that most closely support it, deleting the rest. KateWishing (talk) 20:55, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Now it is okay ? James Newberg (talk) 16:42, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

No. It still is using links to advertising sites, such as skintricks, as if they were reliable sources. They most certainly are not. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:13, 21 September 2015 (UTC)

I erased skintricks. James Newberg (talk) 10:34, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Is this okay now ? James Newberg (talk) 08:42, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

No, it is still a trainwreck of self published sources. The acne.co.il website is his own, a wp:Self published source. Likewise using autobiographies to establish acreditation is very bad practice. Also, several of the cited sources do not support the statements they are cited against, I marked many of these as {{fv}}. Either the statements should be removed, or citations for reliable sources should be provided. I also wp:paraphrased some text that seems to have been directly pasted from the Bloomberg article. As you are going through the sources, please check to ensure this hasn't happened in any other cases. Wikipedia takes copyright violations very seriously. LeadSongDog come howl! 15:52, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

I don't understand: I have checked and double-checked and triple-checked each fact and make sure each fact and fact is well-sourced, I don't know what I can do otherwise. James Newberg (talk) 23:04, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

The phrase "a radio frequency device for home treatment for wrinkle reduction" is a fact that has many sources. James Newberg (talk) 23:06, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

The phrase "Harth was the founder, President, and Medical Director of CureLight Medical Ltd." is a fact that has many sources. James Newberg (talk) 23:07, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

It is the same in the other facts. James Newberg (talk) 23:16, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

There many more reliable sources that I used in the first version when I upload the entry, but because you asked me I erased them. James Newberg (talk) 23:11, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Is this unreliable source like you wrote ? 77.125.75.214 (talk) 23:56, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Autobiographies are definitely not reliable, and that is clearly autobiography, word for word from his own website. It seems that you have not understood wp:RS yet. Please take time to read it. LeadSongDog come howl! 05:29, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

I wrote the facts that appears in many sites and articles (including some that are not in the internet and I read them all and mention them) and I read them all very closely; do you want that I will invent facts ? to write lies ? or maybe to write the unimportant things and skip his major biography ? I wrote the major things he has done, how do I write otherwise ? frankly I do not know. James Newberg (talk) 07:29, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

You need to use reliable sources. The article should reflect what those reliable sources say, not what you know. If you can't find it in a reliable source, don't say it. Wikipedia is wp:NOTFACEBOOK nor LINKEDIN, we don't exist as anyone's publicity platform. Perhaps you should try editing a different article, where you have no prior knowledge of the subject? LeadSongDog come howl! 13:26, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

But I used many reliable sources. 77.125.75.214 (talk) 14:59, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Please sign in to edit. No you used both reliable and unreliable sources, and mixed what they said together, creating your own wp:SYNTHesis. This is not allowable. You tried to reinstate wp:autobiography sources such as [1]. You also removed valid {{fv}} tags. A source that says EndyMed made a product without naming Harth cannot be cited to support an assertion about his involvement. You need a reliable source that states the facts, then you can paraphrase what that source says. I'm reverting your recent edits. LeadSongDog come howl! 16:09, 24 September 2015 (UTC)https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Yoram_Harth&action=edit#

I had reliable references and omit some facts. James Newberg (talk) 16:35, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

@LeadSongDog: As a reviewer, you are expected to verify the tag "not in citation given", but in your recent undo , you re-positioned this unjustified tag. e.g. reference 4 headline is: "CEO Uzi Blumensohn: This is the FDA's first approval of a RF device for home treatment for wrinkle reduction." This sentence is supporting the article text:"as well as a radio frequency device for home treatment for wrinkle reduction". Why do you insist on this tag? Ykantor (talk) 19:08, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

If you read the whole sentence "He co-invented blue light acne vulgaris phototherapy,[1][2] [3] as well as a radio frequency device for home treatment for wrinkle reduction.[4]" it becomes obvious. Ref 4 says nothing about Harth, let alone his role in the RF device.LeadSongDog come howl! 20:30, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

what is this ?

1 - 9,039,697 Electrosurgical methods and devices employing inductive energy

2 - 8,728,071 Systems and methods employing radiofrequency energy for skin treatment

3 - 8,512,331 Electrosurgical methods and devices employing phase-controlled radiofrequency energy

4 - 8,206,381 Electrosurgical methods and devices employing phase-controlled radiofrequency energy

5 - 7,198,634 Phototherapeutic treatment of skin conditions. James Newberg (talk) 10:49, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

Attached also the site on which the home use wrinkle device appears.

Those are patents, previously not cited. Use with care per wp:PATENTS LeadSongDog come howl! 13:08, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

"Agree. This is a newly issued patent. Thus, it appears on the USPTO site and not on the Google patent sites. Based on your request for proof for invention I suggest adding links to issued patents in the references list.

Please do not change or re sequence other's comments on talk pages, per wp:TPG. The mynewa website is yet another EndyMed face, still not a reliable source. Patents are only useful for limited literal statements such as "US Patent 1234567 A New Gadget lists Gidget Gadgeteer as one of the inventors". Patents are not proof of invention, just of having registered a claim. Lawyers regard them as a license to a lawsuit, little more. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:05, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

If Patents are not proof of invention, than what is the proof ? — Preceding unsigned comment added by James Newberg (talk • contribs) 15:22, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Regarding his biographical details, I gave proofs:

• 1 -from 2014 Nation Laser and Cosmetic Medicine conference, where Harth was Keynote Spealakers it's written that "Dr Yoram Harth, board certified Dermatologist, is a Magna cum Laude graduate of the Sackler School of Medicine in Tel Aviv University, a former faculty member of the American Academy of Dermatology and a research fellow in the department of Dermatology a the Columbia - Presbyterian Medical center in New York... recipient of the Wall street journal innovation award for his invention of Acne Phototherapy. Dr Yoram Harth is one of the inventors of multisource radiofrequency technology used for professional and home use skin treatment with extensive experience in non ablative and fractional ablative therapy of the skin."
• 2 - endymed site it's written that "was a founder, president and medical director of CureLight Medical Ltd... he was a research fellow at Columbia Presbyterian Hospital in New York City and a faculty member of the American Academy of Dermatology.
• 3 - in Bloomberg it's written that "Dr. Yoram Harth, M.D. serves as Managing Director of CureLight Ltd. Dr. Harth is a board certified dermatologist and a consultant to national and international firms for the development and clinical trials of medical devices and medicines. He founded Endymed Medical Ltd. and serves as its Chief Medical Officer. Formerly, he was research fellow at the department of Dermatology of Columbia University in New York, and a faculty member of the American Academy of Dermatology. He founded CureLight Medical Ltd. and served as its President and Medical Director. He co-founded the Phototherapy Unit, Rambam Medical center, and was Director of the Photodynamic Therapy Unit, Elisha Medical Center in Haifa. Dr. Harth is the author of several books and multiple papers in clinical and research Dermatology and Photobiology."
• 4 - for the fact "Harth was the founder, President, and Medical Director of CureLight Medical Ltd.", it's written also in "Skin Problems? Just A Light Zap Away!", Singapore Medical Grapevine – A Medical Practice Magazine + 2004/2005 special Issue , page 20.
• 5 - in the book "Photosensitivity to systemic agents." In: DeLeo VA, ed. Photosensitivity Diseases. 1992, in page xi it's written that "Yoram Harth M.D. Department of dermatology Rambam medical center and faculty of medicine Technion, Israel institute of technology, Haifa, Israel. department of dermatology Columbia university. College of physicians and sergeons New York.
• 6 - in the book Yoram Harth. Skin & Sun - How to save your skin. Prolog Publishers, Inc. Tel-Aviv, 1995. it's written on the back of the book that "Dr. Yoram Harth. M.D., a senior skin physician in Haifa medical center, member of the American academy of dematology."
• 7 - in Maariv 18 May 1992 page 16 there is an article by Dalia Mazori, which Harth intrevied and mentioned as M.D. from Rambam skin department.
• 8 - in "The medical post", Toronto, January 11, 1994, Volume 30, No. 2. There is an article by the name "Dermatology update – Protection from sun not always a priority for some patients with skin CA history. It is written that "Dr. Yoram Harth, a dermatologist from the Rambam Medical Center in Haifa."
• 9 - In the journal of Ernst and Young, "Entrepreneur of the year 2002" it's written. "Yoram Harth, President and medical director of Curelight, founded in 1999. Graduate of the Sackler School of Medicine in Tel Aviv University. Served in the Atuda as a military physician in Givati Brigade. Was a research fellow in skin medicine in Rambam hospital, and in photobiology at the department of Dermatology of Columbia University in New York. Wrote many books in this area. Established the phototherapy unit in Rambam and the photodynamic treatment in skin cancer unit at Elisha hospital in Haifa…. Curelight is the first to got the FDA approval for face Acne treatment using light equipment..."

James Newberg (talk) 14:43, 26 September 2015 (UTC)

Clearly, despite my request above, you still have not read wp:RS. Please confirm when you have done so. Until then this discussion is going nowhere.LeadSongDog come howl! 02:47, 27 September 2015 (UTC)

Dear LeadSongDog, I read wp:RS very closely, I think the sources above for the biographical facts in the entry supportive. James Newberg (talk) 21:16, 28 September 2015 (UTC)

I can only conclude that you have either failed to understand what you read or failed to understand that most of those sources were written by Harth or businesses closely associated with him. Ignore the autobiographical sources, they are essentially useless to us except for "He said xyz" statements. LeadSongDog come howl! 19:20, 29 September 2015 (UTC)

Regarding basic biographical facts: Why Maariv is not a good source ? why Bloomberg isn't ? why scientific convention in which Harth is one of the key speakers isn't ? why Singapore Medical Grapevine isn't ? James Newberg (talk) 03:53, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

I add reliable sources. James Newberg (talk) 16:36, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

• No wikipedia article is acceptable as a source, in order to avoid wp:circular referencing. If you meant the article published in the newspaper Maariv, (Dalia Mazori, Maariv, 18 May 1992, page 16), I don't think I indicated any problem with that. I don't read Hebrew, nor do I have access to their archives. However, if it isn't available online, it may be difficult to find anyone else who can corroborate that it supports the insertion of your text. I'm also frankly curious just how you happened to find a twenty-three year old newspaper article.
• The bit from Bloomberg is fine, I didn't have any problem with that.
• The Singapore Medical Grapevine piece is not online so far as I can find, and you've not provided any hints on how to access it, who wrote it, nor what kind of piece it is. The current content on their website certainly does not lead me to consider it to be a very high quality publisher "with a reputation for fact checking".
• I have said before that autobiographies are not helpful sources. Do you not recognize that the blurbs shown for conference speakers such as here are often written by those same speakers? Even when written by the conference organizers, they still are not normally regarded as reliable. LeadSongDog come howl! 17:41, 6 October 2015 (UTC)

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