Talk:Yordan Hadzhikonstantinov-Dzhinot
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POV
editThe POV banner is there because this article tries so hard to push that Dzhinot was Bulgarian that it 1. declares the entire Macedonian historiography revisionist and negationist 2. Does not mention his books published in Macedonian 3. does not mention anything about his life except the activities he was doing that contain the word Bulgarian in them. It is extremely POV'd. @Jingiby: stop reverting my edits. DD1997DD (talk) 07:15, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- 1. His ethnic self-identification was explicitly Bulgarian. He never declared himself as something different. 2. The Macedonian historiography is not called at this version negationist or revisionist. 3.He published books in vernacular, he never called Macedonian, but Bulgarian. If you wont you are free to expand the description of his activity. Jingiby (talk) 09:21, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- You are calling well sourced statements "push POV"? I see both points of view are well sourced in the lead itself.--Алиса Селезньова (talk) 09:31, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- To sum up: he called his country Lower Moesia - an equivalent of Western Bulgaria (he used both terms). He called himself, his compatriots and his language Bulgarian and never Macedonian. Are these facts disputed? Jingiby (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- To cite Dzhinot himself: And if a learned man asks me: are you Bulgarian? I fully answer: I am Bulgarian. That it is not fair for my glorious Bulgarianness to do evil and cunning, Bulgarian not lie, not envy, not denigrate, he is not hypocritical, not fornicate, and for a roasted chicken his faith he never changes. A Bulgarian is a derivative of God ... A Bulgarian is a true and faithful man. A Bulgarian is a lover of all good, a Bulgarian is ashamed to deny his origin and language - Bulgarian is who blasphemes his family.... I am a Bulgarian, I weep for our lost Bulgarians, who are in lower Moesia, so we are obliged to sacrifice for our brothers, the cute Bulgarians! („Цариградски вестник”, 21 юли 1851).Jingiby (talk) 09:54, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- It is not our job to rely on his words as we know that the meaning of words changes with time. Our job as Wikipedians is to provide second and third-party sources that will focus on the author's work and aims in an unbiased way. Right now, you are interpreting his words from your own perspective and add sources that do not even mention him just to claim that Macedonian historiography is false. This article is POV'd because it 1. solely focuses on his nationality 2. claims that the entire historiography of a country is false and tries to represent it as such with every sentence. DD1997DD (talk) 13:59, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Pushing your own POV in the article's lead section and replacing all sources with Yugoslav/Macedonian ones won't make it any more neutral. Also, I see no claims about any historiography being false in the article (maybe you could cite those here). Please, smooth things out on the talk page before engaging in a blatant edit war... again. Thanks. --ShockD (talk) 14:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Secondary academic sources cited here confirm that he was a zealous supporter of the Bulgarian national idea. These are English-language publications with non-Bulgarian authors. The fact that there was a different view in communist Yugoslavia and now in North Macedonia is mentioned in the article. However such fringe views are undue weight and should not encompass most from the lead per Wikipedia rules.Jingiby (talk) 15:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- By the way we can mention that presently in North Macedonia are schools named after Dzhinot, while the pupils who study in them do not have the access to the original literary works of his patron, for the reason of the Bulgarian labels in many of them. Jingiby (talk) 16:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- How would you support that claim with a reliable source? How will you prove the reason? How will you prove that they do not have access? It's not a good idea to add this information, in spite that it could be actually the truth. --StanProg (talk) 17:59, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- By the way we can mention that presently in North Macedonia are schools named after Dzhinot, while the pupils who study in them do not have the access to the original literary works of his patron, for the reason of the Bulgarian labels in many of them. Jingiby (talk) 16:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Secondary academic sources cited here confirm that he was a zealous supporter of the Bulgarian national idea. These are English-language publications with non-Bulgarian authors. The fact that there was a different view in communist Yugoslavia and now in North Macedonia is mentioned in the article. However such fringe views are undue weight and should not encompass most from the lead per Wikipedia rules.Jingiby (talk) 15:58, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- Pushing your own POV in the article's lead section and replacing all sources with Yugoslav/Macedonian ones won't make it any more neutral. Also, I see no claims about any historiography being false in the article (maybe you could cite those here). Please, smooth things out on the talk page before engaging in a blatant edit war... again. Thanks. --ShockD (talk) 14:32, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- It is not our job to rely on his words as we know that the meaning of words changes with time. Our job as Wikipedians is to provide second and third-party sources that will focus on the author's work and aims in an unbiased way. Right now, you are interpreting his words from your own perspective and add sources that do not even mention him just to claim that Macedonian historiography is false. This article is POV'd because it 1. solely focuses on his nationality 2. claims that the entire historiography of a country is false and tries to represent it as such with every sentence. DD1997DD (talk) 13:59, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- To cite Dzhinot himself: And if a learned man asks me: are you Bulgarian? I fully answer: I am Bulgarian. That it is not fair for my glorious Bulgarianness to do evil and cunning, Bulgarian not lie, not envy, not denigrate, he is not hypocritical, not fornicate, and for a roasted chicken his faith he never changes. A Bulgarian is a derivative of God ... A Bulgarian is a true and faithful man. A Bulgarian is a lover of all good, a Bulgarian is ashamed to deny his origin and language - Bulgarian is who blasphemes his family.... I am a Bulgarian, I weep for our lost Bulgarians, who are in lower Moesia, so we are obliged to sacrifice for our brothers, the cute Bulgarians! („Цариградски вестник”, 21 юли 1851).Jingiby (talk) 09:54, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- To sum up: he called his country Lower Moesia - an equivalent of Western Bulgaria (he used both terms). He called himself, his compatriots and his language Bulgarian and never Macedonian. Are these facts disputed? Jingiby (talk) 09:39, 14 May 2020 (UTC)
- You are calling well sourced statements "push POV"? I see both points of view are well sourced in the lead itself.--Алиса Селезньова (talk) 09:31, 14 May 2020 (UTC)